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Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

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Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#181
post #47

I remember following up the Angular tutorial. I was about 15min into the tutorial, and I was already editing 8 different files. I never got lost so quickly. I lost a job because I could not use angular, but never felt bad about it. I remember somebody commenting here on HN about a developer conference, where the speakers were bragging about their software being complex. This is an awful trend with software, and is re…

This is why React won: No template language to learn. No prescriptions for managing your app. No piles of abstractions to do basic things. It's just a UI lib. Import it, declare what to paint on-screen, done. Oh, you want routing? "Not my business", says React. Go add a routing library. You want a framework for managing global state? Go find one. Want a kitchen sink frontend solution which bundles all of these common…

It's also part of its hate - it's been wrangled into a hot mess with routing, data fetching, state management and inability to play nice with html elements (specifically forms; controlled vs uncontrolled components). Not to mention "pure" functions vs classes, hooks, context, render lifecycles leading to the development & usage of useMemo() etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, in its purest & simplest form it is great. Unfortunately it's very rare you get to leave it like that because we now make web _applications_ instead of static websites.

Most of the time you're actually better off just using html5 with css3 - it's very rare that you truly need something that is "reactive".

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot of people online advising against taking CS degrees (in europe, where it's not economically impossible to study). They argue that bootcamps and quick courses are enough, or that chatgpt exists now so programming is a dead profession. I disagree, I think I've had a lot of use from having had education… but I might be biased. But I've had to explain things occasionally.

The carpenter doesn't need a degree. The architect and structural engineer do. If you plan to be a programmer all your life, and a journey-man one at that, then feel free to learn-programming-in-21-days. If you're planning a career in software, then I think understanding fundamentals (database normalisation, the Order of a solution, the ideas of Coupling and Uncoupling, memory usage versus performance, the impact of…

You either have intellectual curiosity or you dont. Colleges will never give that to you.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#184
post #180

You know why this is so dumb? Because there's an analogy that's very similar that explains why we have frameworks. A: I wanna buy a tree. B: Ok. We have trees. What do you need a tree for? A: i want trees so i can make lumber out of them. So i can cut them in two by eights. So i can build a deck deck for my patio B: Hmm we sell two de eights. You wanna buy that instead? A: Oh yes why! I would like that! I'll buy two…

It appears that you are entirely missing the point and the author's criticism of frameworks. Your analogy is the false promise repeatedly fallen for that created the situation described in the story.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#185
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone needs to learn to do calculus by hand before advancing to the calculator. People picking up frameworks without fundamental understanding is a shockingly common fallacy.

I mean, you certainly should learn arithmetic before using a calculator, right? But a calculator is more of a library than a framework, anyway, so your attempt at proof-by-analogy isn't at all resonating with me. (edit: I think I misread the comment I replied to and am now in the process of maybe figuring that out downthread.)

This is a good example. You dont need to learn number theory and operations in n dimensions to be able to effectively use arithmetics in your daily life. A lot of CS courses feel like stuff thats purely theoric for that purpose only.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#186
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extremely common, and was one I fell into as a junior dev myself (early 2010's). Some reasons (based on my experience): - University classes were either very low level, or using some new framework to increase your employment prospects - All the experienced devs would hop jobs every few years, leaving less opportunity for mentorship. - Lack of convenient resources for gaining base knowledge. Googling "how to make a to…

> a good engineer has know where to go for the right information That colleges aren't teaching this as a first-rate topic is a real failure. This is, in my opinion, the most important skill any engineer should have.

Two things to learn...

How to ask the best questions

How to find the answer to such questions

Totally undervalued skills everywhere

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#189
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

React: - completely changes how you write your frontend - changes the language itself (JS -> JSX with embedded HTML) - has lots of react-* libs built around it - comes with a script initializing an app skeleton I would call that a framework. And it's a very good one.

You're conflating React the library with create-react-app which is a collection of pre-configured tooling for making SPAs. React on it's own is very much just a library with a couple functions.

factory to build a factory I see .

Most including the standard docs would recommend using create-react-app unless you really know what you are doing

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone needs to learn to do calculus by hand before advancing to the calculator. People picking up frameworks without fundamental understanding is a shockingly common fallacy.

Wait, you're saying that calculators now do symbolic differentiation and integration (like sympy and mathematica)? Kids today...

That’s how I got through calculus. I learned how to integrate/differentiate once, then programmed those operations into my TI-82 using whatever awful version of basic those things supported.
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