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Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
21–30 of 407 posts
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#22Related:
Why I Hate Frameworks (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28920095 - Oct 2021 (296 comments)
Why I hate frameworks (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12635142 - Oct 2016 (66 comments)
Why I Hate Frameworks (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9203959 - March 2015 (63 comments)
Why I Hate Frameworks (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6542817 - Oct 2013 (37 comments)
Why I Hate Frameworks (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6283601 - Aug 2013 (118 comments)
Why I Hate Frameworks - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2787525 - July 2011 (100 comments)
Why I hate frameworks (2005) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1533274 - July 2010 (55 comments)
Why I Hate Frameworks - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=431786 - Jan 2009 (125 comments)
Why I Hate Frameworks - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=95722 - Jan 2008 (18 comments)
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Edit: related ongoing thread:
A FactoryFactoryFactory in Production (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36638525 - July 2023 (62 comments)
Normally we downweight follow-up posts but that thread is quite good!
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#23This should have ended with the guy giving up in frustration and using a 60 year old loaded gun to drive in his nails.
Funny coincidence. Just yesterday The Far Side featured this comic: https://www.thefarside.com/2023/07/06/1
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#24Simplicity is easy to mandate: "just use simple tools!". It's not always obvious when the finished product looks wonky and slanted and has to be retrofitted several times that the complexity was always there, in the world. The complexity in our tools is hopefully there to help with some complexity in the world. In my experience, it's always the junior who shouts "This could all be so much simpler!".
> In my experience, it's always the junior who shouts "This could all be so much simpler!". 20+ years later and I’m still saying this. Quite possible I’m still the junior in terms of skill though.
> Quite possible I’m still the junior in terms of skill though.
This is a very "senior" mindset.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#25Simplicity is easy to mandate: "just use simple tools!". It's not always obvious when the finished product looks wonky and slanted and has to be retrofitted several times that the complexity was always there, in the world. The complexity in our tools is hopefully there to help with some complexity in the world. In my experience, it's always the junior who shouts "This could all be so much simpler!".
> In my experience, it's always the junior who shouts "This could all be so much simpler!"
Don't have time now to find links of Jonathan Blow, George Hotz, Casey Muratori, and many other decidedly non-junior programmers complaining about the absurd, unnecessary complexity of modern software development.
The people who complain are the people who know how much simpler it can be.
Now, there is a separate phenomenon of green devs who think they can rebuild X only because they can't fathom the bulk beneath the iceberg's tip. That is real too. But it takes nothing away from the very real fact that the vast majority of software written today is much, much more complex than it needs to be.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#26Simplicity is easy to mandate: "just use simple tools!". It's not always obvious when the finished product looks wonky and slanted and has to be retrofitted several times that the complexity was always there, in the world. The complexity in our tools is hopefully there to help with some complexity in the world. In my experience, it's always the junior who shouts "This could all be so much simpler!".
when you land on the right tools and abstractions, your problem domain will start to feel simpler than before.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#27This is taking a shot at Java, and a pretty old "joke" but I've heard of this actually being a thing out in the wild: https://stevenheidel.medium.com/a-factoryfactoryfactory-in-p...
Thanks for the source!
Although, frankly speaking, Java libraries are still the most convenient to include/extend than most other compiled languages I've seen so far. Probably because of that culture of over-engineering for abstraction/extensibility.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#28The worst part of this kind of thing is that young carpenters honestly, really, truly, just need to learn to use a hammer. They can't even conceive of the problems that are being solved by the hammer factory, let alone the factory factory. But in the world of the factory factory factory, the apprentice carpenter (who really just wanted to drive a few nails) is now faced with trying to understand the gargantuan comple…
Everyone needs to learn to do calculus by hand before advancing to the calculator. People picking up frameworks without fundamental understanding is a shockingly common fallacy.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In my experience, it's always the junior who shouts "This could all be so much simpler!". 20+ years later and I’m still saying this. Quite possible I’m still the junior in terms of skill though.
> Quite possible I’m still the junior in terms of skill though. This is a very "senior" mindset.
IMO senior understands that simplicity is possible, but economically not viable for most projects. So complexity is inevitable evil. And true mastery is delivering products, keeping complexity at bay. Not spending time to pursue ideals and at the same time keeping project from felling down to unmaintainable mess.
Re: Why I Hate Frameworks (2005)
#30I want a version of this satire where they only sell hammer subscriptions, but to get the hammer the guy actually wants he needs to buy an Extended Hand Tools subscription that auto renews and costs as much in three months as buying the original hammer would have.
It's not a hammer subscription, it's hammering-as-a-service. You ship them the nails and wood, they ship you back the nails hammered into the wood. You don't have to worry about the complexity of storing or using a hammer anymore, let alone the difficulty of selecting the right hammer, it all just works. They charge extra to sell you the nails and wood, to avoid the complexity of packing and shipping your nails and w…
Maybe you don’t want to be a carpenter after all…