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Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

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Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#141

Post by svnt »

ironmagma wrote: post #93
elvis10ten wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you say more on this (value and how it’s extracted)?

If you are doing something that has inherent value — extracting gold from a mine, performing music, working a factory line — you are the top of funnel for value creation. Unfortunately for you, the only way for society to run is to have your would-be profits extracted to the maximum extent by other parties. Therefore the rich are the ones who actually don’t tend to produce as much and those who do are taken advantage…

This is thinking about it inside out — from the teleology of society needing to run.

If no one promoted musicians, organized tours, etc, then buskers would be the extent of what’s possible.

If one person had to mine, refine, transport, and sell gold that person would do each of those things more poorly than a group of people who specialized.

You are getting at something, but it’s still unarticulated at least from my perspective: large systems of specialized workers produce the opportunity for people to construct and/or capture and maintain chokepoints. With undue control of these chokepoints a person can profit inordinately.

This is part of why anti-trust regulations exist: when the entirety of a class of production is under one coordinated control, that is the ultimate chokepoint. But what you are talking about is a smaller version of that.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#142

Post by rurp »

nfriedly wrote: post #124
rurp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the current crop of AI at least, the upside will almost entirely be captured by a handful of rich elites who will gain even more leverage over workers. Virtually no business owner pays someone well for any reason other than they have to in order to make more money themselves. If LLMs don't flame out it will be like the dawn of offshoring except wider scale and without the upside of poor people in other countries…

> offshoring I wonder if we'll reach the point where "AI" ends up with the same negative connotation as "Made in China".

If it does lead to mass layoffs I think that's almost certain. Even if I'm wrong about the upsides and they are better than expected, there will still be millions of people suddenly destitute who won't care one bit about the latest tech toys, they are just going to be depressed and angry.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#143

Post by sb52191 »

leshow wrote: post #138
m3kw9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you not root for AI? Its potential to improve humanity is huge even if there are potential bad sides. Some People bunching crypto with AI on the usefulness scale is quite ridiculous

I've seen no evidence that "humanity" is going to be improved. I've seen lots of evidence of the gradual enshittification of everything and a few people getting really rich.

I can think of one: If they can improve AI such that it doesn't cite fictional case study, poor people might get actual/better representation in court. The majority of court cases aren't particularly novel or unique (driving without a license, speeding, public intoxication etc). If we can train AI to do a better job than overworked public defenders, we might actually take a step in the right direction towards giving poor people a fighting chance in court.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#144

Post by leshow »

qeternity wrote: post #131
pdntspa wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content writing and concept artists come to mind, I've heard commercial art is getting decimated. The trucking industry is dumping tons of $$$ into automated AI trucking. Tech companies are experimenting with drone delivery instead of hiring drivers. Rideshares experimenting with self-driving taxis. The list goes on. More locally, the local McDonalds recently remodeled, reducing the customer counter to something like…

> Content writing and concept artists come to mind, I've heard commercial art is getting decimated. Who? Be specific. This displacement is happening rapidly, it should be easy to point out. > The trucking industry is dumping tons of $$$ into automated AI trucking. Tech companies are experimenting with drone delivery instead of hiring drivers. Rideshares experimenting with self-driving taxis. The list goes on. How man…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/02/ai-taki...

AI will take some jobs, but there is another risk. It's far more likely that they "de-skill" a certain aspect of work so it becomes less creative and more mundane, more easily replaceable. The goal is to turn creative work into something like a position on an assembly line.

The problem isn't technology, it's in who it benefits. Productivity gains could benefit everyone. We could all get more time off, for example. Instead, those gains make a small number of people extremely wealthy and everyone else more miserable.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#145

Post by ironmagma »

JustBreath wrote: post #135
ironmagma wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are doing something that has inherent value — extracting gold from a mine, performing music, working a factory line — you are the top of funnel for value creation. Unfortunately for you, the only way for society to run is to have your would-be profits extracted to the maximum extent by other parties. Therefore the rich are the ones who actually don’t tend to produce as much and those who do are taken advantage…

> If you are doing something that has inherent value — extracting gold from a mine, performing music, working a factory line — you are the top of funnel for value creation. The standard "how come patrons at a bar pay $10 for a drink but I only make $15 / hour when I serve twenty drinks an hour" argument. The answer of course is because you didn't create the bar, you didn't secure all the necessary supplies and amenit…

> if the bar loses money each month you're still owed a paycheck

Only until the bar stops existing. You're on the hook for business continuity whether you're the employer or the employee. Lex Fridman and Richard Wolff discussed this: https://youtu.be/o0Bi-q89j5Y?t=2984

Co-ops are indeed the closest thing we have to escaping capitalism in America. However they don't grow very quickly if at all, for the very reason that they aren't efficient at extracting value to fuel growth.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#146

Post by leshow »

sb52191 wrote: post #143
leshow wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen no evidence that "humanity" is going to be improved. I've seen lots of evidence of the gradual enshittification of everything and a few people getting really rich.

I can think of one: If they can improve AI such that it doesn't cite fictional case study, poor people might get actual/better representation in court. The majority of court cases aren't particularly novel or unique (driving without a license, speeding, public intoxication etc). If we can train AI to do a better job than overworked public defenders, we might actually take a step in the right direction towards giving…

I think the more likely scenario is you entrench a two tiered system of justice where now "poor people" are just at the mercy of an AI that replicates existing outcomes.

Instead of trying to slap a technical fix onto that problem, we could be working to address root causes.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#147

Post by vintermann »

logicprog wrote: post #120
fatherzine wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we don't know if that data is actually any good" We know the data survived a narrative/biological co-evolution distributed process spanning thousands of generations over many millennia. It doesn't make it perfect, but it makes it pretty darn good with high likelihood, especially when compared with narrative complexes invented yesterday, which have yet to withstand the test of time and which show measurable signs of…

> We know the data survived a narrative/biological co-evolution distributed process spanning thousands of generations over many millennia. It doesn't make it perfect, but it makes it pretty darn good with high likelihood, This is fallacious. Already responded to this at length. > which have yet to withstand the test of time and which show measurable signs of dysfunction. Unlike the older traditions, which manifestly…

The question is, good for what. I think that text in rare languages, and ancient texts, are priceless for our ability to understand ourselves, and by extension, to get a better understanding of our own wants.

In other words, to get a better grip on the what we're trying to achieve with any of this.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#148

Post by usrbinbash »

raverbashing wrote: post #14
usrbinbash wrote: post #6

Well, there is a very simple solution to that problem: Pay people extra money for the privilege of having them fulfill the tasks the way you want them to.

Which would mean working in a controlled environment or installing invasive software in their computers (something that would block chatgpt for example)

> Which would mean working in a controlled environment

Yes, such as an office setting, or the office setting of a contractor. Which are both options.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#149

Post by 13years »

If you can’t be 100% sure something was done by a human, you’re probably better off assuming it wasn’t. That’s a depressing principle to have to adhere to, but here we are.

It seems we will be soon drowning in an endless sea of autogenerated noise. For all the talk of X-risk, this is the imminent tangible risk we can perceive and reason about.

If we can't find solutions to the problems that primitive AI will create, then solving the harder problems of AGI/ASI might become moot as we self destruct before we even get that far.

FYI, my summary of many other potential road blocks and stumbles we are likely moving towards in the near term.

https://www.mindprison.cc/p/ai-and-the-end-to-all-things

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#150

Post by somsak2 »

ironmagma wrote: post #86
JustBreath wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's surreal that even when it comes to AI we still fundamentally rely on underpaid labor.

I used to think that. But when you think more about what value is, how it’s created and how we extract it to pay our insane salaries, it becomes less surprising and more sad.

our salaries are not insane given how much value is created. the amount that is captured by peak capitalists is insane.

ultimately you need to get away from being reliant on a salary and become a capitalist yourself. otherwise you're just one of billions that are a few bad breaks away from starvation.

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