Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 194 posts

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#91

Post by mlyle »

Frondo wrote: post #90
CraigRo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caused huge attrition of the 1st and 2nd year stem students (i.e. quit with a masters). The union was dominated by humanities students, and they fought for what they wanted, not what the overall membership wanted. Very few STEM folks had any interest in being part of the union, but because so many voted with their feet, it was hopeless to set up a decertifiying petition.

Democracy isn't perfect, but checking out is the quickest route to ensuring your interests are only minimally represented. True at all levels of democratic organization.

Checking out and moving to an environment that represents your interests well is a way to see that your interests are met, though.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#92

Post by lapcat »

renewiltord wrote: post #27
CraigRo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caused huge attrition of the 1st and 2nd year stem students (i.e. quit with a masters). The union was dominated by humanities students, and they fought for what they wanted, not what the overall membership wanted. Very few STEM folks had any interest in being part of the union, but because so many voted with their feet, it was hopeless to set up a decertifiying petition.

This is an interesting story. I don't understand why it was flagkilled. Is it obviously false or something?

> Is it obviously false or something?

Yes. Doesn't "a bunch of them went off and got private sector jobs instead, limiting the size of the undergrad population" sound extremely implausible to you? As if graduate students can control enrollment.

The comment sounds like a political hit piece, with no evidence provided. And Scott Walker was a major union buster who spurred massive protests at the Wisconsin State Capitol in 2011 and a recall election (which Walker unfortunately won).

The University of Wisconsin Teaching Assistants Association is one of the oldest student unions in the nation. It's hardly a "disaster".

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#93

Post by Frondo »

supernova87a wrote: post #75
comex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many career paths include a steady increase in future earning potential. As for entitlement, they are entitled to a share of the value they bring to their employer. Or at least, if Stanford doesn’t think so, it can fire them.

I disagree. You are entitled to what you can negotiate as your market value and what you accept in exchange for your labor and talents. If grad students are lined up the door willing to work for less because a PhD from Stanford gives them a ticket for the rest of their life, why should Stanford or any employer have to give them a share of value? That's not how most employment works. Or at least not O(n) proportional…

Organizing and demanding pay collectively seems to help in negotiations, so good for them for taking this approach. It's not like Stanford can move its grad programs to Mexico like a US car maker and its factories.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#94

Post by hitekker »

supernova87a wrote: post #72

When given the opportunity, few people will vote against something that gives them more money. But whether their self-interest is in the broader interest is rarely solved for by such a mechanism. What will happen is that given a finite pot of money, fewer grad students will be taken on by the university's PhD programs, so that the ones who voted for this can get paid more. I'm not sure that's the right choice.

You've been spamming comments across threads on this issue. Why does it rankle you?

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#95

Post by shagie »

lapcat wrote: post #92
renewiltord wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting story. I don't understand why it was flagkilled. Is it obviously false or something?

> Is it obviously false or something? Yes. Doesn't "a bunch of them went off and got private sector jobs instead, limiting the size of the undergrad population" sound extremely implausible to you? As if graduate students can control enrollment. The comment sounds like a political hit piece, with no evidence provided. And Scott Walker was a major union buster who spurred massive protests at the Wisconsin State Capitol…

A number of STEM majors graduating in 2009 and 2010 decided to get a masters rather than enter that economy.

As the economy recovered, STEM hiring picked up substantially and people with a masters degree were quite hirable.

https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2017/science-technology-engine...

> Employment in STEM occupations grew by 10.5 percent, or 817,260 jobs, between May 2009 and May 2015, compared with 5.2 percent net growth in non-STEM occupations. Computer occupations and engineers were among the types of STEM occupations with the highest job gains. Employment in computer occupations was nearly 3.2 million in May 2009 and nearly 3.9 million in May 2015. Employment of engineers was nearly 1.5 million in May 2009, compared with over 1.6 million in May 2015. Some STEM occupations lost jobs. In 2009, there were nearly 478,000 jobs in STEM-related sales occupations, compared with approximately 406,000 in 2015.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#96

Post by rafram »

supernova87a wrote: post #88
mycologos wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective on taking 6 years to do a PhD is that you feel you should have paid for it?

Didn’t say that. I think that grad students are reasonably paid a small salary to be able to live modestly on, so that more students can be taken into programs. Requiring a living wage to the tune of $50k/yr at UC Berkeley as the standard is not reasonable as a matter of spending university $ wisely, or as a matter of what the role of grad school is.

OK. How would you suggest that students cover $50k/year for six to eight years?

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#97

Post by pkoird »

supernova87a wrote: post #72

When given the opportunity, few people will vote against something that gives them more money. But whether their self-interest is in the broader interest is rarely solved for by such a mechanism. What will happen is that given a finite pot of money, fewer grad students will be taken on by the university's PhD programs, so that the ones who voted for this can get paid more. I'm not sure that's the right choice.

Maybe stop paying the bloated management so much and put money where mouth is.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#98

Post by hedora »

ASpring wrote: post #41
CraigRo wrote: post #18

It was a disaster at Wisconsin. Union favored the 8th year humanities students at the expense of the 1 and 2 year STEM students, and traded cash for benefits that really only affected people with families. Stipends were the lowest in the country among major research universities, and the union refused to let wages rise for in-demand TAs, so a bunch of them went off and got private sector jobs instead, limiting the si…

It was great for us at UC Santa Cruz. The reason I had healthcare during grad school was because the union won it right before I joined. The reason they have a housing stipend now (in the most expensive rental market in the US[1]) is because the union fought for a cost-of-living allowance. We at UCSC didn't always agree with the course of the larger UAW 2685 but they did a lot for us. I'm not sure what the system was…

When was this? Just before the pandemic, the grad students protested at UAW meetings and went on a wildcat strike after UAW ratified a contract the campus voted against.

Later, Janet Nepolitano released police drones and set up barricades to try to shut down the picket lines. Eventually covid ended the drama, but only after some students were deported (I assume. The plan was to deport them, but the story stopped making news once the 2020 lockdowns hit.)

Anyway, the UAW was a similar disaster at UC Berkeley a while back. There weren’t widespread protests, but there were salary caps for grad students, and the union eliminated health care coverage for a number of female problems (over student objections).

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#99

Post by whakim »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #15
Atreiden wrote: post #7

Good for them! Academia is a toxic and broken environment, and this seems like a great first step in fixing it. Interested to see how the dynamic plays out at Stanford, and if other American universities follow suit.

Alas, I'm not sure a union can begin to fix anything except a few cosmetic things. The biggest problem is the massive oversupply of people who want academic careers versus the number of real jobs. The individual unions at the schools can't tackle this oversupply at all because it's caused by the schools acting independently. The natural game is to protect the insiders by restricting admission like many of the other u…

Graduate student unions aren't aiming to tackle this, and I don't know of any that are. At Stanford, the unionization campaign centered around Stanford's stipends (which have not kept up with inflation and put students in the "extremely low income" category per the county) and Stanford's status as both employer and landlord for many students.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#100

Post by hedora »

ipcress_file wrote: post #62
CraigRo wrote: post #18

It was a disaster at Wisconsin. Union favored the 8th year humanities students at the expense of the 1 and 2 year STEM students, and traded cash for benefits that really only affected people with families. Stipends were the lowest in the country among major research universities, and the union refused to let wages rise for in-demand TAs, so a bunch of them went off and got private sector jobs instead, limiting the si…

I can't know if this is true or false. It reads like it is politically motivated. Can you cite sources to substantiate the many claims you have made here?

I don’t know about Wisconsin, but based on how UAW behaves in California, I’d need strong evidence before I believed they acted in the interest of graduate students in any state.

Here’s the “do what the union agreed to even though your campus voted against it or you will be fired” notice that UC sent to the UC Santa Cruz graduate students:

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/graduate-student-prot...

The “small group” of striking students they mention led to UC calling in aid from the military and federal police:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kppna/california-police-use...

They also set up lots of barricades and released a fleet of police drones.

It would have made more news (and likely continued longer), if it hadn’t started just before the Covid lockdowns.

Anyway, this all happened after the students protested in front of UAW meetings, and were ignored by their union reps.

Post reply on HN