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Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

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Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#71

Post by gnopgnip »

teruakohatu wrote: post #10

Are graduate students employees in the USA? I know in Europe there are universities where that is the case.

Yes at public and private universities graduate students receiving stipends, most assistants are employees covered by the national labor relations act. They get a W2 and pay taxes on the income, except for qualified educational expenses. The law protects their right to collectively bargain.

But not all students are employees. https://web.archive.org/web/20180307211117/https://www.nlrb....

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#72

Post by supernova87a »

When given the opportunity, few people will vote against something that gives them more money. But whether their self-interest is in the broader interest is rarely solved for by such a mechanism.

What will happen is that given a finite pot of money, fewer grad students will be taken on by the university's PhD programs, so that the ones who voted for this can get paid more.

I'm not sure that's the right choice.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#73

Post by _delirium »

teruakohatu wrote: post #57
Eigenstate wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, no, universities classify graduate students as students, not employees. Stanford additionally classifies postdocs as students and charges their funding source a nominal tuition fee. > A Stanford postdoctoral scholar is a non-matriculated trainee, in graduate student status, in residence at Stanford University pursuing advanced studies beyond the doctoral level in preparation for an independent career. This…

> This makes doing taxes as a postdoc extremely irritating as the stipend is not earned income, Is this normal in the USA? In New Zealand postdocs are employees (usually on short or medium term contracts that align with funding grants).

It depends on the source of the funds and the nature of the postdoc’s duties. If the postdoc is on a “fellowship”, either paid by the university or by something like an NIH trainee fellowship, then they are not employees. If the employee is hired to do work for a project, on the other hand, which is typical when funded on an NSF or DARPA grant, then they are employees. This is MIT’s info page, which I believe is reasonably representative: https://postdocs.mit.edu/postdoctoral-position/defining-post...

Science had an article on that in 2002 that went into more detail on how this system came about (basically, vague laws that have ended up interpreted through a series of IRS rulings). I think but am not 100% sure that even though this article is about 20 years old, the current situation is still similar. https://www.science.org/content/article/postdocs-and-law-par...

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#74

Post by ftxbro »

I am picturing a mob of dirty peasants demanding more rights from their feudal lord and they are somehow Stanford grad students. I don't hate unions but I feel like something has changed where whatever made Stanford prestigious has gone away and now the people associated with it are coasting off its old reputation. I don't know what is the new one that will be as prestigious in the future. Maybe an institution at Shenzhen or something.

It's interesting to me that the Shenzhen logo seems to be modeled on the Stanford logo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen_University and also that the Stanford logo has some English and German writing on it. Stanford University was was founded before WWI and German was the dominant language of science. Similarly the Shenzhen University logo has some Chinese and English writing on it, and at the time of its founding English was the dominant language of science.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#75

Post by supernova87a »

comex wrote: post #70
supernova87a wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was a grad student in physics for 6 years, so feel free not to offer opinions on things you don't know about. Grad students are getting an education and a big bump to their future earning potential, often at significant taxpayer expense. What entitlement do they have to have a free ride, much less make living wage on top of that?

Many career paths include a steady increase in future earning potential. As for entitlement, they are entitled to a share of the value they bring to their employer. Or at least, if Stanford doesn’t think so, it can fire them.

I disagree. You are entitled to what you can negotiate as your market value and what you accept in exchange for your labor and talents. If grad students are lined up the door willing to work for less because a PhD from Stanford gives them a ticket for the rest of their life, why should Stanford or any employer have to give them a share of value? That's not how most employment works. Or at least not O(n) proportional to the value they create.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#76

Post by 1shooner »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #58
supernova87a wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's okay to be ignorant about how weird things work, but sharing opinions about things you don't know about should be avoided. A PhD "student" isn't really a student. They're an employed researcher at a research institution, working under more senior researchers who are able to attract grant money. To use an analogy to the trades, the PhD students are the apprentices, the senior researchers / professors are the jour…

Ah, the confident condescension of a grad student. Don't miss that at all.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#77

Post by supernova87a »

Eigenstate wrote: post #43
supernova87a wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Because higher education shouldn't be something reserved for the independently wealthy?

This is perhaps the most creditable argument.

But still, I doubt you would have found many grad students who were independently wealthy before unionization. Or at least, in the field where they were lobbying the hardest for unionization, is probably where the most independently wealthy students were.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#78

Post by mycologos »

supernova87a wrote: post #64
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's okay to be ignorant about how weird things work, but sharing opinions about things you don't know about should be avoided. A PhD "student" isn't really a student. They're an employed researcher at a research institution, working under more senior researchers who are able to attract grant money. To use an analogy to the trades, the PhD students are the apprentices, the senior researchers / professors are the jour…

Yeah, I was a grad student in physics for 6 years, so feel free not to offer opinions on things you don't know about. Grad students are getting an education and a big bump to their future earning potential, often at significant taxpayer expense. What entitlement do they have to have a free ride, much less make living wage on top of that?

Your perspective on taking 6 years to do a PhD is that you feel you should have paid for it?

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#79

Post by WalterBright »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #58
supernova87a wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's okay to be ignorant about how weird things work, but sharing opinions about things you don't know about should be avoided. A PhD "student" isn't really a student. They're an employed researcher at a research institution, working under more senior researchers who are able to attract grant money. To use an analogy to the trades, the PhD students are the apprentices, the senior researchers / professors are the jour…

> working under more senior researchers who are able to attract grant money

An entire ecosystem based on pleasing arbitrary government committees doling out funds.

Re: Stanford Graduate Students Won Their Union Vote

#80

Post by colechristensen »

supernova87a wrote: post #72

When given the opportunity, few people will vote against something that gives them more money. But whether their self-interest is in the broader interest is rarely solved for by such a mechanism. What will happen is that given a finite pot of money, fewer grad students will be taken on by the university's PhD programs, so that the ones who voted for this can get paid more. I'm not sure that's the right choice.

It’s the right choice. We need academia to be a competitive choice, to attract top talent, to not just be those with enough resources or enough passion to put up with awful pay and working conditions.
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