Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#101

Post by gtirloni » Thu, Jul 06, 2023, 7:38 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #98

gtirloni wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ranking is about a hieararchy and where someone is positioned in it. Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy so it seems fair to say they are "higher rank". Whether that translates to real power or not depends on a lot of things. I think this discussion is conflating ranking and skill and these don't often correlate. > Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs i…

> Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy What hierarchy? Are you talking about the org chart? I don't see that as a hierarchy in the sense I think it's being used here. It's just a description of who is managing who, not of "rank" in some sort of militaryesque sense. My manager is not my "superior". He's the person responsible for ensuring that everyone in his department is working in an aligned manner, and f…

You seem to be attributing your personal view of the world to the word "rank", to be honest. It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#102

Post by saulpw » Thu, Jul 06, 2023, 7:43 PM UTC

pixelatedindex wrote: post #88

CalRobert wrote: post #6

Is being a manager better? Is it a raise you want? There may be other ways. I make more than my manager. I've had great managers and I've worked with great software developers and while it certainly helps to be a great developer to be a great manager, some of the worst managers I've had were also great developers. You may have a different skillset. And I don't know that avoiding humiliation is the best motivation to…

> Is being a manager better? If a manager is higher on the totem pole, isn’t that by definition “better”?

No, not at all? It sounds like you have an implicit bias that "broader-scope" is "better". And/or "can wield more power" is "better". But those aren't better, only a role you might want for yourself, if what you want is to operate at a more abstract level or have power over people.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#103

Post by JohnFen » Thu, Jul 06, 2023, 8:45 PM UTC

gtirloni wrote: post #101

JohnFen wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy What hierarchy? Are you talking about the org chart? I don't see that as a hierarchy in the sense I think it's being used here. It's just a description of who is managing who, not of "rank" in some sort of militaryesque sense. My manager is not my "superior". He's the person responsible for ensuring that everyone in his department is working in an aligned manner, and f…

You seem to be attributing your personal view of the world to the word "rank", to be honest. It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.

> It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.

Well, I already confessed that I'm not sure what people mean by "rank" here. I know it's not related to self-worth (not sure why you think I did relate it to that). But if it's not related to the org chart, then I don't have a clue what people mean by it.

What does the rank/hierarchy mean to you in this context?

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#104

Post by runjake » Thu, Jul 06, 2023, 9:26 PM UTC

wilg wrote: post #97

runjake wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think it is "humiliating" to get managed by someone younger than you then you don't have the right mindset for the role to begin with. Granted, the industry seems to feed this, too. For example, two former [younger] underlings occupy the next two spots up on my chain of command. It seems like I am constantly asked why I didn't move up or "get the promotion". I respond with "they do a better job of managing t…

Why don't you just say you were offered it and preferred not to?

It would strike me as an arrogant thing to say, especially when they're better at management than I am. It would feel like I was crapping upon their skills and abilities.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#105

Post by pixelatedindex » Thu, Jul 06, 2023, 9:37 PM UTC

saulpw wrote: post #102

pixelatedindex wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is being a manager better? If a manager is higher on the totem pole, isn’t that by definition “better”?

No, not at all? It sounds like you have an implicit bias that "broader-scope" is "better". And/or "can wield more power" is "better". But those aren't better, only a role you might want for yourself, if what you want is to operate at a more abstract level or have power over people.

Yep, it’s the “can wield more power” is better. I’m biased in that way because to me if you fail when you don’t have a lot of power, the consequences are worse than when you fail as a CEO or some high level managerial position where you’re given golden handcuffs/parachutes.

In other words, to me it feels like an IC can “fail down” but managers/directors/c-suites only seem to “fail up” - hence, better. I also think managers make way more than an IC, as they are a “level above” in the org structure.

I’m happy to change my bias, but I haven’t seen any evidence to the contrary.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#106

Post by gtirloni » Thu, Jul 06, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #103

gtirloni wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be attributing your personal view of the world to the word "rank", to be honest. It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.

> It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize. Well, I already confessed that I'm not sure what people mean by "rank" here. I know it's not related to self-worth (not sure why you think I did relate it to that). But if it's not related to the org chart, then I don't have a clue what people mean by it. What does the rank/hierarchy mean to you in this context?

It's the org chart. The. org. chart.

I think we're talking past each other.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#107

Post by ParadisoShlee » Thu, Jul 06, 2023, 10:50 PM UTC

I deeply love the idea that management is like the retirement home for developers after you've burnt out. You've put in your time, and now it's time to just sit back, "manage", and do sweet FA.

I mean... for a LOT of management, that's entirely true.

but you really need to dream bigger!

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#108

Post by WheelsAtLarge » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 12:09 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #74

You seem to have some misguided ideas about management that you first need to get rid of. - Management isn't a "next step" for developers but an entirely different career path. You don't naturally progress into it, and no one owes it to you. It takes a whole new skill set and lots of deliberate work to make the switch. - Like any other job title, "manager" isn't handed out based on seniority but skill. If you think i…

"It takes a whole new skill set and lots of deliberate work to make the switch." This is very much true. Right now you are managing code. As a manager you'll be managing people, your managers, and in many projects. Managing people can be very difficult. You not only deal with the business day to day issues but you'll have to deal with some of the life problems of the people you manage. Some people love it and others dislike it. It's not a higher level of writing code. It's just different and requires new skills.

BTW, young managers can be at any level of the management structure. It's very possible that your new boss as a manager could be younger than you.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#109

Post by halkony » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 12:30 AM UTC

runjake wrote: post #104

wilg wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you just say you were offered it and preferred not to?

It would strike me as an arrogant thing to say, especially when they're better at management than I am. It would feel like I was crapping upon their skills and abilities.

Smart call. Good news spreads as well as bad news in any group of people.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#110

Post by kelipso » Fri, Jul 07, 2023, 2:07 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #71

devnullbrain wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can your reports fire you?

Well, no but that's mainly because of asymmetric numbers. If all reports of a manager complain to the managers manager, that manager will likely be reassigned or reprimanded in a similar manner to a manager and an IC. Also I should note that in most of Europe (at least the parts I've worked in), a managers voice is just a louder voice in a room of other managers- and firing someone is something that is not done by an…

Depends on the company but I'd say in most small and medium-sized companies in the US, your manager can fire you without cause and be just fine with maybe some half-assed explanation if upper management asks questions.