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Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

atlasobscura.com

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Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#11

Post by czDRZ-akk »

morkalork wrote: post #3
1letterunixname wrote: post #2

Post 1550 as part of the Columbian interchange, the Old World owes these to the New: tomato, maize/corn, squash, peppers, chili pepper, cocoa, potato, sweet potato, avocado, vanilla, tobacco.[0] It would seem that although most staples and dishes are hundreds-thousands of years old (bread c. 30k BCE), what would qualify as modern pizza couldn't exist before the 16th c., although it arrived c. 18th-19th c. 0. https://…

Irish food with no potatoes, Italian without tomatoes and Indian without chili peppers. Sort of breaks a lot of people's preconceptions doesn't it?

“Indian food” itself is a major generalization given its variety of regional cuisines. You can say the same thing about Italian food.

In this case, people’s preconceptions are typically just ill-informed.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#12

Post by taeric »

1letterunixname wrote: post #2

Post 1550 as part of the Columbian interchange, the Old World owes these to the New: tomato, maize/corn, squash, peppers, chili pepper, cocoa, potato, sweet potato, avocado, vanilla, tobacco.[0] It would seem that although most staples and dishes are hundreds-thousands of years old (bread c. 30k BCE), what would qualify as modern pizza couldn't exist before the 16th c., although it arrived c. 18th-19th c. 0. https://…

It is crazy to me how much our modern ideas on food and clothing are more modern than we realize. Always fun to point out that places that have what we call "spicy" food got there by import.

Even bread, I suspect, is probably a lot different than we realize. There is a wide range in what that can cover, with many of the types of bread that last longer being popular for their longevity in older times.

And that doesn't even get into the drastic shift in diet that came from rationing times. There are a lot of parts of the animal that we used to directly eat.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#13

Post by Joker_vD »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #8
jsmith99 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They reached Italy by then but only became a common food ingredient mid 19th century.

To be fair, Italy only became a unified state mid 19th century too...

Which makes it an actual national tradition. Nations only really started to appear at the end of the XVIII century.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#14

Post by nerdponx »

taeric wrote: post #12
1letterunixname wrote: post #2

Post 1550 as part of the Columbian interchange, the Old World owes these to the New: tomato, maize/corn, squash, peppers, chili pepper, cocoa, potato, sweet potato, avocado, vanilla, tobacco.[0] It would seem that although most staples and dishes are hundreds-thousands of years old (bread c. 30k BCE), what would qualify as modern pizza couldn't exist before the 16th c., although it arrived c. 18th-19th c. 0. https://…

It is crazy to me how much our modern ideas on food and clothing are more modern than we realize. Always fun to point out that places that have what we call "spicy" food got there by import. Even bread, I suspect, is probably a lot different than we realize. There is a wide range in what that can cover, with many of the types of bread that last longer being popular for their longevity in older times. And that doesn't…

This seems to be a common thread throughout history. It's hard to distinguish old traditions from very old traditions from ancient ones, so they all become a blurred jumble, and the traditions just are whatever they are at any given time.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#15

Post by katbyte »

causi wrote: post #7
1letterunixname wrote: post #2

Post 1550 as part of the Columbian interchange, the Old World owes these to the New: tomato, maize/corn, squash, peppers, chili pepper, cocoa, potato, sweet potato, avocado, vanilla, tobacco.[0] It would seem that although most staples and dishes are hundreds-thousands of years old (bread c. 30k BCE), what would qualify as modern pizza couldn't exist before the 16th c., although it arrived c. 18th-19th c. 0. https://…

Pizza predates the use of the tomato. The oldest mention of pizza in text is from 997 C.E.

older, at least 2000 years now

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/world/europe/pizza-mural-...

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#16

Post by submain »

taeric wrote: post #12
1letterunixname wrote: post #2

Post 1550 as part of the Columbian interchange, the Old World owes these to the New: tomato, maize/corn, squash, peppers, chili pepper, cocoa, potato, sweet potato, avocado, vanilla, tobacco.[0] It would seem that although most staples and dishes are hundreds-thousands of years old (bread c. 30k BCE), what would qualify as modern pizza couldn't exist before the 16th c., although it arrived c. 18th-19th c. 0. https://…

It is crazy to me how much our modern ideas on food and clothing are more modern than we realize. Always fun to point out that places that have what we call "spicy" food got there by import. Even bread, I suspect, is probably a lot different than we realize. There is a wide range in what that can cover, with many of the types of bread that last longer being popular for their longevity in older times. And that doesn't…

Bread is indeed different nowadays, specially in the americas.

Modern wheat was "invented" by Norman Borlaug in the 60s. It was genetically modified (through breeding and other means) to provide higher yield.

Some places, like Italy and France, still use the old low yield "original" wheat.

I learned this painful lesson when I thought I had gluten allergy. I can't eat any kind of bread in the US. But when I went to France, I had no problems. Turns out (AFAIK), high yield wheat is also really hard to digest...

I only use French flour now.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#17

Post by lastofthemojito »

morkalork wrote: post #3
1letterunixname wrote: post #2

Post 1550 as part of the Columbian interchange, the Old World owes these to the New: tomato, maize/corn, squash, peppers, chili pepper, cocoa, potato, sweet potato, avocado, vanilla, tobacco.[0] It would seem that although most staples and dishes are hundreds-thousands of years old (bread c. 30k BCE), what would qualify as modern pizza couldn't exist before the 16th c., although it arrived c. 18th-19th c. 0. https://…

Irish food with no potatoes, Italian without tomatoes and Indian without chili peppers. Sort of breaks a lot of people's preconceptions doesn't it?

There are even more recent examples - the ancient age ended relatively recently in Hawaii, but even though they were not present prior to European contact, outsiders expect "Hawaiian food" to include pineapple or coconut or macadamia nuts.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#18

Post by anthk »

katbyte wrote: post #15
causi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pizza predates the use of the tomato. The oldest mention of pizza in text is from 997 C.E.

older, at least 2000 years now https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/world/europe/pizza-mural-...

Dishes similar to pizza (bread with stuff on top) existed across all of the Mediterranean since forever.

Back in the day people had no proper phyisical dishes (read: recipients) and they just ate food on top of bread slices.

Re: Debunking the Myth of the National Dish

#19

Post by jghn »

lastofthemojito wrote: post #17
morkalork wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irish food with no potatoes, Italian without tomatoes and Indian without chili peppers. Sort of breaks a lot of people's preconceptions doesn't it?

There are even more recent examples - the ancient age ended relatively recently in Hawaii, but even though they were not present prior to European contact, outsiders expect "Hawaiian food" to include pineapple or coconut or macadamia nuts.

Or for instance pad thai, which was created in the early-mid-1900s as part of an intentional effort to create a national dish.
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