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Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

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Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#71

Post by dijit »

devnullbrain wrote: post #57
dijit wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the core of it. Good managers never feel like they “outrank” you, they make you feel like they operate in a broader context and allow you to do your best work. I am management now, I only took this role because every time I trusted someone else to manage they let me down; but it really is just a different job, its not “superior” and using words like that to describe management is a huge part of the pr…

Can your reports fire you?

Well, no but that's mainly because of asymmetric numbers.

If all reports of a manager complain to the managers manager, that manager will likely be reassigned or reprimanded in a similar manner to a manager and an IC.

Also I should note that in most of Europe (at least the parts I've worked in), a managers voice is just a louder voice in a room of other managers- and firing someone is something that is not done by an individual, it's a discussion with managers and HR.

It's not taken lightly to fire people, even in places that are "at will" (theoretically) like Denmark.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#72

Post by dijit »

apple4ever wrote: post #65
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #42

Good managers don’t seek out the role for its own sake; they naturally become one. The best managers I’ve seen (and have had the pleasure of working with) were extremely talented ICs who got along really well with others, and naturally transitioned to management roles when their own projects became too big in scope to handle on their own. The absolute worst managers I’ve seen (thankfully, none were my manager) only b…

> Good managers don’t seek out the role for its own sake; Depends on what you mean by this, but I will disagree. I didn't naturally become a manager. I sought it out because I believed I could do it better than the managers I have. I believe I am a good manager - not a perfect one as I have made mistakes and I still have improvements to make. When I have left a couple of jobs to make the next step (team lead to manag…

I'm in the exact same position as you, I get positive feedback on my management style but I'll be honest: I am paranoid that it's just people engaging in "people-pleasing", after all: there's no value to frustrating or being overly honest to your manager.

I think that's why I've had issues with management too, I've always seem them as doing a job that's different from mine, as in: we are the same level working on different areas. -- Whereas perhaps they seem themselves as superior.

Regardless: I really wish I could trust the feedback I get, I want to improve, I want to be the best, I will always fail in some area but I am completely blind to my faults since all I ever hear is praise.

I do not believe for one second that I'm worthy of such praise, I work hard for sure, but I don't doubt that my managers (whom I didn't enjoy working with) did also.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#73

Post by rg111 »

WJW wrote: post #12

> younger folks are above me. It feels undignified, humiliating at times. I'm not sure becoming a manager would solve that, as there might still be younger people managing you. Even if you become CEO, shareholders and investors might be younger too. I think a better approach would be to discover first why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger.

Slightly tangential, but in the span of my career, when I have worked with young people, I have enjoyed it much more than old boss-stereotyped bosses.

I only once had a younger supervisor, and I preferred that much more than an old boss.

Is it just me? I have also had a friend tell me the same.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#74

Post by paxys »

You seem to have some misguided ideas about management that you first need to get rid of.

- Management isn't a "next step" for developers but an entirely different career path. You don't naturally progress into it, and no one owes it to you. It takes a whole new skill set and lots of deliberate work to make the switch.

- Like any other job title, "manager" isn't handed out based on seniority but skill. If you think it is "humiliating" to get managed by someone younger than you then you don't have the right mindset for the role to begin with.

From my experience these are both more true in tech than any other industry. Getting managed by someone younger than you, someone more junior than you, someone making less money than you etc. are all very common. If you can't get used to it then you are always going to have a bad time.

As for how to switch into it – it is very unlikely that anyone is going to hire you for a management position with zero experience. If you want to grow into it your best bet is to do so at your current company. First become a leader as an IC, someone who defines technical paths, does cross-team collaboration, clears up ambiguity and someone who junior teammates can generally look up to for guidance and inspiration. If you don't meet these requirements it's unlikely you will be able to succeed – both as a manager or as a staff+ engineer.

At first glance everything you have written (can't tolerate work, feel humiliated working with younger managers, stagnant in your job, no motivation, considering lying on your resume) comes across as massive red flags, and I'm not surprised that you aren't able to get ahead. My overall advice is to take some time for reflection and self improvement and then form a plan for yourself to get out of this rut.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#76

Post by tomcam »

paxys wrote: post #74

You seem to have some misguided ideas about management that you first need to get rid of. - Management isn't a "next step" for developers but an entirely different career path. You don't naturally progress into it, and no one owes it to you. It takes a whole new skill set and lots of deliberate work to make the switch. - Like any other job title, "manager" isn't handed out based on seniority but skill. If you think i…

Tough love, OP, but heed those words.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#77

Post by paxys »

devnullbrain wrote: post #57
dijit wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the core of it. Good managers never feel like they “outrank” you, they make you feel like they operate in a broader context and allow you to do your best work. I am management now, I only took this role because every time I trusted someone else to manage they let me down; but it really is just a different job, its not “superior” and using words like that to describe management is a huge part of the pr…

Can your reports fire you?

At most companies your direct manager can't fire you either. They simply write reviews and escalate problems to upper management/executives/HR, who then decide whether to act on it or not.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#78

Post by JohnFen »

nashashmi wrote: post #25
WJW wrote: post #12

> younger folks are above me. It feels undignified, humiliating at times. I'm not sure becoming a manager would solve that, as there might still be younger people managing you. Even if you become CEO, shareholders and investors might be younger too. I think a better approach would be to discover first why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger.

> why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger. The idea that when you grow up you go up in rank. And if you have younger people who are above you, and you have not moved up at all, then you feel like you’re not performing well. I think this feeling is artificial and externally influenced. Some of us are made to do work. Others are made to oversee. They are both equal in rank. Just different set of skill.

Interesting. I never thought of managers as being a "higher rank" than those they are managing. Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#79

Post by JohnFen »

If you're tired of being a programmer, then you're looking at changing your career. Management is one of the options for your new career, along with many others.

There is not a "natural progression" from being a programmer to being a manager. They are very different and distinct occupations.

> Can I leverage my experience (i think i have a lot..) to move into a management role when i don't have any job experience in that role?

Your programming experience does not translate into managerial experience. If you really want to get into management, you'd be well-advised to seek out training in that field no matter how experienced a programmer you are.

That said, once you have managerial chops, your programming experience has value. Not in terms of being a manager generally, but in terms of being a better manager of programmers. In other words, it's a value-add -- but you need to have the baseline value before there's something to add to.

Re: Ask HN: Stuck as a developer for 15 years. How to become a manager?

#80

Post by JohnFen »

rg111 wrote: post #73
WJW wrote: post #12

> younger folks are above me. It feels undignified, humiliating at times. I'm not sure becoming a manager would solve that, as there might still be younger people managing you. Even if you become CEO, shareholders and investors might be younger too. I think a better approach would be to discover first why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger.

Slightly tangential, but in the span of my career, when I have worked with young people, I have enjoyed it much more than old boss-stereotyped bosses. I only once had a younger supervisor, and I preferred that much more than an old boss. Is it just me? I have also had a friend tell me the same.

Of the two best managers I've ever had, one was ancient and the other was fresh out of college. It leads me to think that age is not terribly relevant to the issue.
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