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Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

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Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#371

Post by Terretta »

rapjr9 wrote: post #272
aurizon wrote: post #92

These gradient comfort guys want $5000 for an 8000 btu unit with a total weight of $150 pounds. Compressor and heat exhaust hand outside. Evaporator and fan/control hang inside, It has a SEER rating of 10. There are dozens of minisplits for $1000 that have a SEER from 19-24. I can see no reason why a close coupled mini split with a 1" armored electrical/freon joint could not be made. This is what a gradient comfort i…

This seems to be a much more reasonable unit, 10,000 BTU, does both heating and cooling via a heat pump, and it costs $700, although there are a lot of negative reviews: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09ZCZSSV8 $5000 is ridiculous for the Gradient Comfort 8000BTU window unit. The Soleus is the only other heat pump window unit I've seen for sale. Midea makes some A/C's that are more efficient because they use an inverter,…

This unit is designed differently, blocking more of the view, but lets the window close: https://www.amazon.com/Midea-Inverter-Conditioner-Flexibilit...

People are happy with this unit in NYC for tiny pre-war construction units that can't use traditional A/C for reasons.

The other unit you link appears to be sold under a variety of brands, look at the comparable products and the button configurations, in all of them the blue light on right is a bit offset upwards:

https://www.amazon.com/R-W-FLAME-Conditioners-U-Shaped-Condi...

This is not unusual. Almost all these compressor-based mechanical boxes, from A/Cs to refrigerators, low end to high end, are made by the same 3 mega companies and white labeled by even the "best" known brands.

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#372

Post by thejazzman »

nsxwolf wrote: post #193

When I needed a new air conditioner a couple years ago I was quoted $17,000 for a heat pump. I can only guess at that point whatever energy cost savings it would bring would never be realized within the service life of the system. I went with a $6000 standard replacement AC unit.

I had the exact same experience last month. I was really excited to go heat pump. It ended up being $8k vs $12k (dual stage) vs ....... > $20k for the heat pump

The guy made no attempt to upsell me and if anything was pushing the cheapest option

Suffice to say I don't plan on staying at that house long enough to ever get my moneys or enjoyment out of it. Bummer.

--

I think it's true that the cost only goes up "a little" between models, but the issue is, they make you go up across the board of equipment and it all adds up dramatically. The high end option requires buying their custom thermostat which was $1200 alone

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#374

Post by pdx_flyer »

cwkoss wrote: post #164
zamalek wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you aren't getting quotes for a ground-sourced (AKA geo) heat pump? We just installed a 4.5 ton (overkill for your sqft) 20 seer unit for $18000.

I got a very similar quote ($27k for ~2000sqft home) in seattle a few months ago. Salesperson said there is excess demand for both labor and machinery for heat pump installations in the past few months. I wondered at the time to what extent this is a regional phenomenon (seattlites are nerds who like energy efficiency) vs. supply chain issues vs. a sales technique. Interestingly, I learned that it will be too cold fo…

I am starting to wonder if there is just that much demand in the PNW. Maybe due to a large amount of older construction being built without ducting (baseboard heating)?

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#375

Post by pdx_flyer »

zamalek wrote: post #155
pdx_flyer wrote: post #152

I was looking for a whole home heat pump and got some quotes that started at $27,000 for a home that is 1800 square feet. That price is a bit hard to swallow. I really don't want to just cool one or two rooms in the house.

Are you sure you aren't getting quotes for a ground-sourced (AKA geo) heat pump? We just installed a 4.5 ton (overkill for your sqft) 20 seer unit for $18000.

Nope, not ground-sourced.

May I ask where you are located (generally)?

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#376

Post by zamalek »

pdx_flyer wrote: post #375
zamalek wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you aren't getting quotes for a ground-sourced (AKA geo) heat pump? We just installed a 4.5 ton (overkill for your sqft) 20 seer unit for $18000.

Nope, not ground-sourced. May I ask where you are located (generally)?

Virginia

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#377

Post by zamalek »

eclarkso wrote: post #225
hattmall wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems crazy high too though, I just got a 5 ton for a 2300 sq ft house with 12kw heat strips including duct work for 10k. The duct work was $3800.

I agree that seems expensive, but I wouldn't be totally shocked if a high-SEER, "name brand" unit with a pricey contractor could get that high. I had >100% cost variation for similar equipment between HVAC contractor quotes the last time I replaced a unit.

Yep, the price delta is definitely because of the high seer rating. That being said, we were quoted about the same price for a 16 seer unit from another contractor (McCarthy). It's definitely worth shopping around.

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#378

Post by mindslight »

alistairSH wrote: post #239
mindslight wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of HVAC lingo, but that's not the entirety of it. The media is explaining them as if they're some completely different advancement, rather than focusing on the commonalities. Look at this nonsense: > Heat pumps are also compatible with natural refrigerants with lower climate impacts. They can consume less electricity than conventional central air conditioners Like no, any efficiency gains for cooling have n…

It’s not just a heat pump thing, it’s the entire industry. The state of science and tech journalism is pretty sad right now. That’s what happens when few people are willing to pay for quality research and writing. All that said, it is relatively recently that Americans have had access to heat pumps this efficient and they work reasonably well in sun-freezing temps. I grew up with heat pumps. It was pretty normal for…

I agree, but I'm specifically calling out the treatment of heat pumps here because that is the topic under discussion. A meta point about journalism as a whole wouldn't really be on topic, nor easily applicable.

I don't have heat pump experience, or even much central AC experience, but I do know that there has been many advancements that make them practical for a wider audience rather than the previous niche. I wish articles would describe these advancements rather than effectively saying "a heat pump is this new awesome invention, go buy one".

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#379

Post by amluto »

elil17 wrote: post #369
amluto wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time you do that, you might as well also put in a variable speed compressor and a variable speed fan, at which point there’s not much left. (Seriously, where I live, you will likely pay $1k or slightly more to drain and refill the refrigerant. The hardware for an entire modern heat pump , indoor and outdoor components, is maybe $3-4k. Is it really worth it to drain an old existing unit, cut the pipes, add a re…

This is because HVAC companies wildly overcharge. It does not take $1,000 worth of labor to drain and refill refrigerant, but it does take a qualified technician, and there are not enough of those.

That’s absolutely true. But the same problem would exist, much worse, if everyone started modifying their old A/C systems to turn them into heat pumps.

To add to the list of why this whole idea seems dubious: a conventional air conditioner operates with its evaporator coil at a balmy 50F or so. If you reverse it, the outdoor coil will become the evaporator, and it will operate below freezing if it’s cold out (even if the outdoor temperature is a bit above freezing). As a result, condensate can form and freeze on the coil.

This is entirely manageable (any modern heat pump can operate in decently chilly conditions, and heat pumps equipped for low temperature operation can operate in very cold conditions), but I expect that at least some engineering is involved.

Re: Heat Pumps – The Well-Tempered Future of A/Cs

#380

Post by rapjr9 »

Terretta wrote: post #371
rapjr9 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a much more reasonable unit, 10,000 BTU, does both heating and cooling via a heat pump, and it costs $700, although there are a lot of negative reviews: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09ZCZSSV8 $5000 is ridiculous for the Gradient Comfort 8000BTU window unit. The Soleus is the only other heat pump window unit I've seen for sale. Midea makes some A/C's that are more efficient because they use an inverter,…

This unit is designed differently, blocking more of the view, but lets the window close: https://www.amazon.com/Midea-Inverter-Conditioner-Flexibilit... People are happy with this unit in NYC for tiny pre-war construction units that can't use traditional A/C for reasons. The other unit you link appears to be sold under a variety of brands, look at the comparable products and the button configurations, in all of them…

The Midea model you linked does not supply heat, but this Midea model does seem to have a heat pump that can supply heat:

https://www.amazon.com/Midea-Cooling-Inverter-Window-Conditi...

But the page also says: "NOTE: heat pump function will not work if outside temp is 41°F or below."

The R-W-FLAME unit has about as many bad reviews as the one I linked. Maybe the reason for the lack of products/competition is as you say they "are made by the same 3 mega companies".

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