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patrickcollison.com

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Re: Fast

#221

Post by climatologist »

systemvoltage wrote: post #212
jljljl wrote: post #24

For the Van Ness Bus Line example: one reason there were major delays was because maps of underground sewer lines and plumbing were inaccurate, and needed to be relocated. The 6 years of construction was really a bus lane + major sewer infrastructure project. Which brings up another reason why some of these projects were Fast -- they operated in places where there there wasn't existing infrastructure or residents to…

Are you arguing that we would have been just as slow in 1955 if "There were existing infrastructure or residents to deal with"? The whole point of this article is that we should aspire to be better, faster, more relisilient to failures, less bureaucratic and efficient. My gut sense (subjective) is that we profoundly suck today at doing anything aspirational. But, nitpicking each of the examples as many comments here…

The reality is more complicated than it appears but I've observed a bunch of construction projects near Millbrae CalTrain station and they finish the buildings extremely fast. A bunch of metal frames go up, then some pipes, then some wires, and then some concrete walls.

The project planning and construction is done by a single company, Truebeck Construction, and they seem to know what they're doing.

I don't know what Patrick's list is trying to illustrate but most construction projects in the US happen very fast.

Re: Fast

#222

Post by rurp »

carabiner wrote: post #73

Major one missing: China built 5,000 miles of high speed rail in 6 years. In California, it's been 15 years and we have 0 miles complete. Also built numerous hospitals during pandemic in a couple weeks. Demolished and replaced a bridge in 43 hours: https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a... . General pattern of completing infrastructure projects at a blistering pace - and they work. Also landed a…

> Autocracy gets shit done.

On certain high profile projects, sure. But autocracy typically embeds a lot of corruption at every level of the system which creates a drag in many ways.

A system that prioritizes loyalty and obedience to your superiors more than anything tends to have a lot of waste.

Re: Fast

#223

Post by richdougherty »

A classic 20 year old article on the principle of Stop Energy.

"Stop Energy is not reasoned, it never takes into account the big picture, it is the mirror image of Forward Motion. In the Stop Energy model, everyone, no matter how small their stake in a technology, has the power to veto. Nothing ever gets done, and people who want to move forward are frustrated in every attempt to move. Unfortunately, Stop Energy is the rule, not the exception"

https://radio-weblogs.com/0107584/stories/2002/05/05/stopEne...

Re: Fast

#224

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

> The physical infrastructure projects enumerated above occurred before 1970 to a disproportionate degree. Why?

Probably because the author either can't count or doesn't know what disproportionate means.

1/3 of the entries on the list going back to 1889 happened after 1970 (which is about 1/3 of the timespan). That sounds very proportionate. Why no questions about the long gap after the Eiffel Tower?

The most disproportionate things about the list are World War II and the fact that the list is extremely arbitrary.

Re: Fast

#225

Post by dang »

fragmede wrote: post #158
dang wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are you talking about? Please edit swipes like that out of your HN posts, as the site guidelines request: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Your comment would be just fine without that bit.

Fixed, thanks.

Appreciated!

Re: Fast

#226

Post by systemvoltage »

climatologist wrote: post #221
systemvoltage wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing that we would have been just as slow in 1955 if "There were existing infrastructure or residents to deal with"? The whole point of this article is that we should aspire to be better, faster, more relisilient to failures, less bureaucratic and efficient. My gut sense (subjective) is that we profoundly suck today at doing anything aspirational. But, nitpicking each of the examples as many comments here…

The reality is more complicated than it appears but I've observed a bunch of construction projects near Millbrae CalTrain station and they finish the buildings extremely fast. A bunch of metal frames go up, then some pipes, then some wires, and then some concrete walls. The project planning and construction is done by a single company, Truebeck Construction, and they seem to know what they're doing. I don't know what…

This is not a widespread opinion or pattern as I see it. This is first time I am hearing from someone that we in America "build things fast".

I suggest reading Eli Dourado's blog: https://www.elidourado.com/

and his many blog posts on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Fast

#227

Post by climatologist »

systemvoltage wrote: post #226
climatologist wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is more complicated than it appears but I've observed a bunch of construction projects near Millbrae CalTrain station and they finish the buildings extremely fast. A bunch of metal frames go up, then some pipes, then some wires, and then some concrete walls. The project planning and construction is done by a single company, Truebeck Construction, and they seem to know what they're doing. I don't know what…

This is not a widespread opinion or pattern as I see it. This is first time I am hearing from someone that we in America "build things fast". I suggest reading Eli Dourado's blog: https://www.elidourado.com/ and his many blog posts on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Just speaking from personal experience. The methods that I observed are very modern and very efficient. The parts for the entire building are pre-fabricated and then assembled at the construction site. So the stagnation narrative is more than likely overblown and the folks that think things are slower now should visit some of those Truebeck construction sites and observe for themselves.

Re: Fast

#228

Post by photonerd »

scubbo wrote: post #207
CamperBob2 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The SPE was unethical and its methodology was garbage, but the observations were valid enough. When someone refuses to commit an atrocity for you, all you have to do is ask the next person in line. You won't have to go too far down the line before you find someone who is not only willing to follow an illegal order from an authority figure, but happy to. See also Milgram. The conclusion was self-evident before the…

> The conclusion was self-evident before they ran the experiment, so another criticism that could be leveled at the experiment was that it was redundant. "It's just common sense" is not a solid scientific proof. Testing something that we _think_ we know (but have no proven) is not a bad thing.

Ish. It’s usually more useful to test hypotheses about why something is. If that something isn’t then you can’t get an answer & will often demonstrate the counter-factual.

Simple “we confirmed water is wet” tests are not very good science. Whereas “what is wetness & why does it happen” is.

Re: Fast

#229

Post by photonerd »

lchengify wrote: post #151
jljljl wrote: post #24

For the Van Ness Bus Line example: one reason there were major delays was because maps of underground sewer lines and plumbing were inaccurate, and needed to be relocated. The 6 years of construction was really a bus lane + major sewer infrastructure project. Which brings up another reason why some of these projects were Fast -- they operated in places where there there wasn't existing infrastructure or residents to…

> one reason there were major delays was because maps of underground sewer lines and plumbing were inaccurate, and needed to be relocated. New York calls this "peek and shriek" [1]. No one really knows whats under the street until you start digging. The Van Ness Bus line was particularly bad because it failed to adjust expectations and project management once this was discovered. In NY at least everyone expects it to…

It was also pretty predictable as literally ever major SF dog runs into similar problems or wacky underground issues (giant building sized slab of rock that no-one found? Happened. Run into multiple historic 150 year old sunken boats buried under your skyscraper? Happened…)

Re: Fast

#230

Post by [deleted] »

rurp wrote: post #222
carabiner wrote: post #73

Major one missing: China built 5,000 miles of high speed rail in 6 years. In California, it's been 15 years and we have 0 miles complete. Also built numerous hospitals during pandemic in a couple weeks. Demolished and replaced a bridge in 43 hours: https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a... . General pattern of completing infrastructure projects at a blistering pace - and they work. Also landed a…

> Autocracy gets shit done. On certain high profile projects, sure. But autocracy typically embeds a lot of corruption at every level of the system which creates a drag in many ways. A system that prioritizes loyalty and obedience to your superiors more than anything tends to have a lot of waste.

[deleted]
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