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AI weights are not open “source”

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221–230 of 274 posts

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#221
post #115

Can someone give me a legal answer to this? People, from early school, all the way up to university, use copyrighted materials to learn various topics and obtain degrees. This trains our brains using the work of others. The same is true as we navigate life. We learn various skills and subjects consuming the work of others. And, yes, in the case of most people, we use that training to pursue various careers, obtain wo…

I am not a lawyer. But isn't this quite simple? Copyrighted materials are either licensed specifically for a human or it's implied that a human will use them to learn. Naturally, human memory is going to distort and change that information over time. But as soon as you use it in an AI, which has superhuman capabilities of memory, that would go out the window.

> Copyrighted materials are either licensed specifically for a human or it's implied that a human will use them to learn.

I don't think that's a part of copyright law at all. Maybe in the future, not today. Which makes sense, since these laws precede AI by a long time.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#222

> The ethical license category applies to licenses that allow commercial use of the component but includes field of endeavor and/or behavioral use restrictions set by the licensor. I don’t love the name, “ethical license” sounds like a description of the license: this license is ethical. Really this sort of license imposes a particular ethical framework on the user. Not to throw shade, though. It is actually hard to…

I'd argue any licensing of IP is unethical. I'd use the word "conditional"

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#223
post #208
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The requirement for expertise doesn’t necessarily imply that that setting up perimeters for training AI is necessarily copyrightable. A normal brick wall for example needs skills to create but doesn’t qualify as the goal is not creative. If so the mechanical output of a process that doesn’t qualify for copyright is not going to qualify. Labeling training data may qualify for copyright, but if the underlying training…

> but if the underlying training data doesn’t taint the output as a derivative work then labeling isn’t going to qualify by itself. It depends. If each individual training item has a small impact on the output coefficients, then perhaps it's not a derivative work of them. But if there's a large creative process in determining model training procedure, deciding labelling strategies, and applying those-- perhaps those…

That sounds like wishful thinking, individual training items have significant impact on the result.

Anyway, suppose you’re building an AI to walk, there’s nothing creative about selecting 9.8m/s/s for gravity that’s simply the ideal value to achieve a desired goal. Labeling an elephant as “Elephant” rather than “coat hanger” is similarly a functional choice.

Just because a person is holding a camera and taking a photo doesn’t mean the result is copyrightable.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The complexity described seems to be resting on the unestablished idea that weights are copyrightable in the first place. Yes. Weights probably aren't copyrightable in the US. See Feist vs. Rural Telephone, in which the Supreme Court ruled that telephone directories are not copyrightable. The copyright clause in the Constitution ("To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to…

This is mostly right - It depends on what the weights represent and how they were generated so I would not go as far as the initial claim. A collection of numbers is copyrightable if it's the encoded result of a creative process. Just because it's represented as a bunch of numbers does not make it non copyrightable. That's why it says " original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now know…

> Mechanically computed from random numbers, no

Even random numbers are copyrightable.

Below is an implementation of Marsaglia's invention, from p348, courtesy infamous NR[1]. Its a MWC (multiply with carry) random number generator, with two parameters, variable a and base b=2^32. --- For a, "The values below are recommended with no particular ordering." ID a B1 4294957665 B2 4294963023 B3 4162943475 B4 3947008974 B5 3874257210 B6 2936881968 B7 2811536238 B8 2654432763 B9 1640531364 --- as we all now know, the whole thing is copyrighted - you can't redistribute that code and can't use those specific numbers to generate random numbers without purchasing a license, which only allows you to use it once in your personal machine; that's why GSL[2]. The pseudorandom numbers you would get from MWC if you use above numbers are also copyrighted since they are work-product.

[1]http://numerical.recipes/book/book.html [2]https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/design/gsl-design.html

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#225

Are the weights in our brain copyrightable? Might want to get ahead of the curve on this one. How would this work? Would I get a tattoo with a license spelling out covering the contents of my body?

Has to be fixated (unchanging) and in a tangible medium.

So I just need to cryogenically freeze my brain in order to copyright it?

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#226
post #223
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if the underlying training data doesn’t taint the output as a derivative work then labeling isn’t going to qualify by itself. It depends. If each individual training item has a small impact on the output coefficients, then perhaps it's not a derivative work of them. But if there's a large creative process in determining model training procedure, deciding labelling strategies, and applying those-- perhaps those…

That sounds like wishful thinking, individual training items have significant impact on the result. Anyway, suppose you’re building an AI to walk, there’s nothing creative about selecting 9.8m/s/s for gravity that’s simply the ideal value to achieve a desired goal. Labeling an elephant as “Elephant” rather than “coat hanger” is similarly a functional choice. Just because a person is holding a camera and taking a phot…

> Anyway, suppose you’re building an AI to walk, there’s nothing creative about selecting 9.8m/s/s for gravity that’s simply the ideal value to achieve a desired goal.

Suppose you're not building a strawman, but instead building an AI to be an LLM. The exact sequence of what you choose to do for instruction tuning, and the metrics and labels that you choose, the prompt/response pairs you write, and the loss functions you employ are quite creative. They greatly affect the coefficients and are not simple mechanical steps and are the result of a large amount of creative choice.

We are nowhere near a point where they are an uncreative, mechanical recipe to follow.

> Just because a person is holding a camera and taking a photo doesn’t mean the result is copyrightable.

No, but in the overwhelming majority of circumstances it is. What it depends upon is whether the person holding the camera is making a significant, original creative choice.

I am not sure what courts will decide, but I am certain that there is more creativity and originality employed than you are giving OpenAI et al. credit for.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem with legal system (not unique to any specific country, mind you, the problem is global), not patent or copyright system specifically. It grew incredible amounts of complexity so pro se became a sad joke in all but simplest cases, and there's no incentive to fix it - quite the opposite, everyone in the system is all for keeping the status quo, because it generates money.

But there are specific problems with copyright and patent law that could be improved without a global systemic overhaul that may never happen. We have to take some small wins even in the presence of big problems.

Of course. I'm just saying that the core problem is larger than just the copyright and patent law.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like you stood up a straw man there. >Just because it's represented as a bunch of numbers does not make it non copyrightable. Can you give an example of where the bunch of numbers is copyrightable when it's not just a numeric encoding of something that was already copyrightable? Taking music and encoding it as a wav file is not a creative work, but it's a representation of a copyrighted…

"Can you give an example of where the bunch of numbers is copyrightable when it's not just a numeric encoding of something that was already copyrightable?" Sure, there are "poems" that consist of just a groups of numbers that are copyrighted. They are not encodings, it's just a string of numbers. It's indistinguishable from a bunch of numbers. This is just one example, there are lots. They are enforceable to the degr…

I fully agree with what you say, with one bit of nuance to point out:

> Like if you go to the copyright office and try to register your ssh public key and say "this was generated by ssh-keygen i had nothing to do with it" you may get a different result than if you said "this is my new visually stunning masterpiece, my ssh public key, which was generated with computer help but I used 37 precisely timed keyboard smashes to do it. Prints are available from my gallery for $500"

The important thing, of course, isn't whether the copyright office denies to register your copyright, but instead what courts will ultimately do when you attempt to enforce your copyright.

We know the current administrative algorithms used by the copyright offices. We have less clarity on what courts will ultimately do.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#229
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you take the harry potter books and create a spreadsheet with each word in it as a column, and the number of times that word appears. Would that violate the copyright? I'd be interested in the rationale if someone thinks it would.

If your table was the number of times a word was followed by a chain of other words, that would be a closer comparison to AI weights. In that case it would be possible with reasonable accuracy to reconstruct passages from the harry potter books (see GitHub Copilot). The copyright aspect makes more sense when you start thinking of AI training models as lossy compression for the original works. Is a downsampled copy of…

It resembles lossy compression in some ways, but in other important ways I think it doesn’t?

Like, if one has access to such a model, and doesn’t count it towards the size cost of a compression/decompression program nor as part of the compressed size of the compressed images, then that should allow for compressing images to have substantially fewer bits than one would otherwise be able to achieve (at least, assuming that one doesn’t care about the amount of time used to compress/decompress. Idk if this is actually practical.)

But unlike say, a zip file, the model doesn’t give you a representation of like, a list of what images (or image/caption pairs) it was trained on.

Or like, in your analogy with the lower resolution of the movie, the lower resolution of it still tells you how long the movie is (though maybe not as precisely due to lower framerate, but that’s just going to be off by less than a second, unless you have an exceedingly low framerate, but that’s hardly a video at that point.)

There is a sense in which any model of some data yields a way to compress data-points from it, where better models generally give a smaller size. But, like, any (precisely stated) description counts as a model?

So, whether it is “like lossy compression” in a way that matters to copyright, I would think depends a lot on things like,

Well, for one thing, isn’t there some kind of “might someone consume the allegedly infringing work as a substitute for the original work, e.g. if cheaper?” test?

For a lower resolution version of Star Wars movie, people clearly would.

But if one wanted to view some particular artwork that is in the training set, I would think that one couldn’t really obtain such a direct substitute? (Well, without using the work as an input to the trained model, asking it to make a variation, but in that case one already has the work separate from the model, so that’s not really relevant.)

If I wanted to know what happened in minute 33 of the Star Wars movie, I could look at minute 33 of the compressed version.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Outputs from LLMs, machine generated art, and machine generated music probably are not copyrightable either. I don't have a strong sense of whether this is reasonable (I see arguments both ways) but I do think it's pretty strongly at odds with how we treat photographs. There are a bunch of photos on my phone where I unquestionably own the copyright, despite putting in much less creativity than I did for some AI ima…

On photography, the argument was condensed into "who pushed the button". We saw it with the monkey auto-portrait copyright fight where copyright was not granted to the photographer, and other nature photography using photo traps where the copyright stuck with the human basically because they were the last operator of the camera. The interesting part is, those controversial case are pretty recent when the art of photo…

Eh? The copyright was the photographers and not the monkeys.

https://petapixel.com/2018/04/24/photographer-wins-monkey-se...

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