The "Spanish Theory" of software project management • Hacker News Board

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#11

Post by demian » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 3:47 PM UTC

cantrevealname wrote: post #7

This meme about how unfair it is that programmers work unpaid overtime is starting to drive me nuts. I've been in big stodgy software company where everyone worked exactly 8 hours, and the whole company filed out the door at 5pm as if a factory whistle had blown. I've also worked at a smallish software company where the norm was at least 10 or 11 hours a day, and half the programmers came in on Saturdays and Sundays…

There is nothing wrong with working 10 or 11 hours, if you want to. The problem is when programmers DON'T want to stay overtime.

Have you read "In Praise of Idleness" by Bertrand Russell? It raises some interesting questions.

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#12

Post by tropin » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 3:48 PM UTC

josemariaruiz wrote: post #5

I'm Spanish and I approve this article! I didn't knew that there was a "Spanish Management Theory" ;), it seems we are just giving the world awesome things... like the Spanish Flu.

Except the only relation between the Spanish Flu and Spain was that Spanish newspapers were the firsts writing about it, as they weren't as censored as the ones published in countries fighting WWI.

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#13

Post by msrpotus » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 3:48 PM UTC

cantrevealname wrote: post #7

This meme about how unfair it is that programmers work unpaid overtime is starting to drive me nuts. I've been in big stodgy software company where everyone worked exactly 8 hours, and the whole company filed out the door at 5pm as if a factory whistle had blown. I've also worked at a smallish software company where the norm was at least 10 or 11 hours a day, and half the programmers came in on Saturdays and Sundays…

Not all of us want to spend every moment in the office. Some of us have girlfriends, hobbies, or just sometimes need a break from sitting in front of a computer.

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#14

Post by cantrevealname » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 3:48 PM UTC

cujo wrote: post #8

cantrevealname wrote: post #7

This meme about how unfair it is that programmers work unpaid overtime is starting to drive me nuts. I've been in big stodgy software company where everyone worked exactly 8 hours, and the whole company filed out the door at 5pm as if a factory whistle had blown. I've also worked at a smallish software company where the norm was at least 10 or 11 hours a day, and half the programmers came in on Saturdays and Sundays…

Maybe I'm missing your point, but from what I gather, no one should be whining about unpaid overtime because you don't think programmers have social lives and their time is better spent working for free. Have you heard the expression, "Speak for yourself"? It applies to you here.

But the OP is speaking to all software developers, and I'm offering an alternative viewpoint.

> no one should be whining about unpaid overtime

Do I think that I and other programmers should be paid for overtime? Yes, of course I do. I would gladly accept payment. My point is that this complaint about unpaid programmer time is becoming a recurring theme, as if it's a huge and terrible problem. What's next: programmers forming a union like Detroit auto workers.

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#15

Post by mathattack » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 3:51 PM UTC

I was a bignpropknent of OT for non managers since they have less control. The danger with paying managers OT is every hour they do "make work" causes the organization to spend 10 more so you don't want to invent that. OT policies encourage managers to properly staff from the start.

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#16

Post by mahmud » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 3:57 PM UTC

tropin wrote: post #12

josemariaruiz wrote: post #5

I'm Spanish and I approve this article! I didn't knew that there was a "Spanish Management Theory" ;), it seems we are just giving the world awesome things... like the Spanish Flu.

Except the only relation between the Spanish Flu and Spain was that Spanish newspapers were the firsts writing about it, as they weren't as censored as the ones published in countries fighting WWI.

They nap in the afternoon, they publish uncensored news .. is there anything those Spaniards are good for?

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#17

Post by demian » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 4:03 PM UTC

youlost_thegame wrote: post #3

qntm wrote: post #2

> In practice what this often means for the developer is unpaid overtime (also known as "crunch time"), something very familiar to game developers, and also common in traditional software development, as the project nears its deadline. But those unpaid hours are actually costing you, the developer, because you can't get them back. Sure you can. A good employer will give you time off in lieu later. Of course, an even…

And also I agree to work overtime near deadlines because my employer lets me super flexible work time when there's not much work. So it's a tradeoff. Of course, if your employer doesn't compensate with something, you're getting screwed. But that's true for developers, waiters, clerks, everybody, it's not something specific of our kind.

Based on the comments and complains I heard and read online (in other words: it's only my wild theory) what it seems specific of programmers is the willingness to comply, without trying to negotiate. Maybie it's because the ideal is passionate effort instead of detached profesionalism, or maybie it's because programmers are just a 'quiet bunch'.

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#18

Post by bryanbibat » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 4:05 PM UTC

cantrevealname wrote: post #7

This meme about how unfair it is that programmers work unpaid overtime is starting to drive me nuts. I've been in big stodgy software company where everyone worked exactly 8 hours, and the whole company filed out the door at 5pm as if a factory whistle had blown. I've also worked at a smallish software company where the norm was at least 10 or 11 hours a day, and half the programmers came in on Saturdays and Sundays…

Been there done that. Wait a couple of years and those people from the second company will start dropping like flies.

They either get a personal life and move to a company that allows that, or burnout / go insane because they don't have anything to live for.

Not everyone is built to live just for "code".

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#19

Post by mikeash » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 4:11 PM UTC

cantrevealname wrote: post #14

cujo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but from what I gather, no one should be whining about unpaid overtime because you don't think programmers have social lives and their time is better spent working for free. Have you heard the expression, "Speak for yourself"? It applies to you here.

But the OP is speaking to all software developers, and I'm offering an alternative viewpoint. > no one should be whining about unpaid overtime Do I think that I and other programmers should be paid for overtime? Yes, of course I do. I would gladly accept payment. My point is that this complaint about unpaid programmer time is becoming a recurring theme, as if it's a huge and terrible problem. What's next: programmers…

What's wrong with forming a union?

Re: The "Spanish Theory" of software project management

#20

Post by melling » Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 4:27 PM UTC

cantrevealname wrote: post #7

This meme about how unfair it is that programmers work unpaid overtime is starting to drive me nuts. I've been in big stodgy software company where everyone worked exactly 8 hours, and the whole company filed out the door at 5pm as if a factory whistle had blown. I've also worked at a smallish software company where the norm was at least 10 or 11 hours a day, and half the programmers came in on Saturdays and Sundays…

You're an excellent little drone worker. Unfortunately, on their deathbed, most people probably aren't going to wished that they worked more. Maybe trying to find a girlfriend, a few good friends, dancing late into the night, learning another language, writing the great American novel, etc. should be part of a complete life.

At the very least, if all you want to do is work, start your own company. You're probably just making someone else rich who is enjoying life a lot more than you.

You only go around once and you can't take it with you.