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AI weights are not open “source”

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Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#71
post #49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. A lot of the difficulty here is how they skip is the hugely important issue: An entirely reasonable, if not fully tested, statement is the following: Every single one of these AI weight things itself is a result of unencumbered, massive, law-breaking, right-violating copyright infringement -- accordingly, it's extremely difficult to say anything morally justifiable or authoritative about anyone elses "rights…

> is a result of unencumbered, massive, law-breaking, right-violating copyright infringement Why? Copyright covers expression not information, AIs can learn information from any source regardless of copyright. They should just not regurgitate copyrighted content, that's all. And much of what organic content is online is common knowledge, thus can't be copyright-controlled.

Tell that to some illegal numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#72
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore, if weights are copyrightable, wouldn't this make the issue of training data licenses even more urgent? IANAL, but if weights are IP, wouldn't they constitute a "derived work" of the training data?

That's also my understanding, either the weights are copyrightable and then all the models need explicit agreements for any work they include in it because models become derivatives or they are not copyrightable being just machine data (the most likely scenario in my opinion), they can't have it both ways.

I think there could be an argument that it's copyrightable but not a derivative work.

If I read a few books about a subject as research, and then I write an article about the subject, it's my own copyright. The fact that I did research doesn't make it derivative of those books (correct me if I'm wrong, IANAL).

Perhaps a model created from copyrighted material be treated in the same way?

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#74

The complexity described seems to be resting on the unestablished idea that weights are copyrightable in the first place. If they're not, then presumably "available weights", "ethical weights", and "open weights" are all the same: open weights. Either your weights are under NDA and presumably considered to be a trade secret, or they are public, and the words in your "license" mean absolutely nothing? That seems like…

This has been my position from the beginning. It is very hard for me to imagine that weights can be copyrighted at all. IANAL.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#75

The complexity described seems to be resting on the unestablished idea that weights are copyrightable in the first place. If they're not, then presumably "available weights", "ethical weights", and "open weights" are all the same: open weights. Either your weights are under NDA and presumably considered to be a trade secret, or they are public, and the words in your "license" mean absolutely nothing? That seems like…

Weights are equivalent to compiled object code IMO. All else follows from there.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#76
This post did cover many of the same ideas I have been ruminating on concerning model weights and the nomenclature of current efforts. That's also why I generally tend to stick with calling these[0] "local/self hosted models" for the time being. A major reason for my reluctance is that I see weights far closer to binary than code, making a distinction important and current FOSS concepts not really applicable.

Of course, this all hinges on the idea that weights by themselves are inherently protected by current copyright, which still seems to be an unsettled topic, hotly debated by both laypeople and legal professionals. Authors generally are afforded copyright on their work by default, and weights raises so many questions concerning authorship that have never been considered.

This being such a contested issue, which will require new laws and/or precedent (depending on the legal system), is very problematic. Regardless of where you live, generally courts and government entities are not famous for their speedy reaction to new things, so clarity may take a while, at which point the industry might have already settled on some agreement that then may be adopted as a basis for actual legislation, which would likely favor financially well baked entities already actively lobbying for their interests, such as OpenAI.

Some have also pointed out that this is arguing semantics, and I am tempted to agree in principle, but also want to emphasize that I feel this is a situation where that can be valuable. Should weights in some way be afforded copyright protection, clear nomenclature will be needed. Putting some thought into this now is definitely not the worst idea.

I very strongly feel that the specific word "ethical" as part of defining licenses is not the best idea, though. "Ethical" can carry vastly different connotations, depending on a myriad of factors, many of which would go beyond the use-focused definition laid out in the post. Due to this, I'd argue for "behavioral" or "restricted use" over "ethical", as both more clearly state what the intended effect is in cases such as Open RAIL-M[1].

Part of my strong feelings on the use of the word "ethical" come from the fact that with weights and training data, there has been a lot of discussion concerning both rights of and considerations for creators whose published works have been used to create those weights. Due to this, the use of "ethical" referring to a group of licenses could give some the impression that this may indicate that the training data used was "ethically sourced", i.e. in agreement with the original creator. This is something that in my eyes should also have clear labeling, though with weights being very hard to reliably trace back to source data, it currently seems impossible to verify, making this essentially just a good faith effort.

[0] https://huggingface.co/tiiuae/falcon-40b-instruct

[1] https://drive.google.com/file/d/16NqKiAkzyZ55NClubCIFup8pT2j...

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#77

The article makes a good point: we should prevent “open-washing” and draw a distinction between well-intentioned restrictive licenses like “Open”RAIL and true open source. However, I worry the name “ethical source” is itself a bit question-begging. While outfits like Bloom may believe in good-faith ethical principles, their definition of ethics isn’t necessarily everyone’s. If restricted models are “ethical”, is rele…

I think the more interesting aspect of all this is that the confusion created by this new business model ( not sure to classify it so business model had to do ) appears to be largely intentional. The subject matter is complicated to begin with experts being niche of a niche of a niche and the assumption that the general public can even understand it ( and whether it can even dumbed down to digestible sound bites ) is, in my mind, very optimistic. Now, courts are not typically stacked with dummies, but again how many are well versed in issues of technology?

All in all, I don't disagree with the point you raised, but I worry that all this will only further muddy the water for the general population.

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#78
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore, if weights are copyrightable, wouldn't this make the issue of training data licenses even more urgent? IANAL, but if weights are IP, wouldn't they constitute a "derived work" of the training data?

That's also my understanding, either the weights are copyrightable and then all the models need explicit agreements for any work they include in it because models become derivatives or they are not copyrightable being just machine data (the most likely scenario in my opinion), they can't have it both ways.

There is also a (IMO less likely, but still conceivable) scenario where weights ARE copyrightable, but represent fair use of the training data on grounds of being "sufficiently transformative".

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#79
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single one of these AI weight things itself is a result of unencumbered, massive, law-breaking, right-violating copyright infringement Maybe the popular and free ones. Adobe has a product in beta that uses "ethical training data" as a selling point.

Interesting. I wonder what they mean by "Ethical" -- instead of e.g. saying "definitely free and open." I'm willing to bet "stuff they gathered from likely unwitting Adobe users."

Adobe also happens to own Adobe stock, so maybe they simply trained on their own corpus.

Who am I kidding this is Adobe of course they're fucking over their users

Re: AI weights are not open “source”

#80
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people are just upset because their local equilibrium has been disrupted and they think that means they lost a natural right. "You wouldn't look at a car and then remember what that looked like when someone asks you to draw another"

These are not bad arguments, but I don't think they're conclusive. I am a lawyer, and I could absolutely see this going the other way. "You can't make these machine things without literally feeding this copyrighted information into them, therefore they do contain a copy. You can see this by when they reproduce, e.g. the "getty images" deal." *this is not legal advice, dangit commenter person below

It's just a race for which test case gets to the supreme court first really...
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