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So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

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Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#61

Post by sshine »

xmprt wrote: post #20
manojlds wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a long lasting career in programming, work on building the languages, not just using the languages. Is probably what someone said many decades ago.

Is that not true to some extent? In the early days of computer science, when there were so many new developments, it would serve you well to be the person working on writing the programs and building computer hardware, rather than the person using computers to get stuff done. The person using computers was still miles ahead of the person not using computers but where you really wanted to be was building languages and…

> where you really wanted to be was building languages and inventing new tools.

Building computers, operating systems and compilers was always a niche.

So if you're a computer scientist or an electrical engineer, sure.

But if you're not, there was, is and will be "power users" who make the most of it.

  - Teach, fix shit and bridge the gap for mortals
  - Enjoy technology with a deep but not foundational understanding.

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#62

Post by parpfish »

BoorishBears wrote: post #51
parpfish wrote: post #4

i feel like people that get really into prompt engineering seem to forget that other people are working on building models that are even better . Do they really think that the tricks they developed to make gpt3.5 work well will still be necessary on gpt9 (or whatever new model replaces gpt)? if you want a long-lasting career in AI you need to work on the actual AI stuff, not just using the AI stuff.

I feel like people who write stuff like this don't understand the difference between software and software that delivers value. I mean, you think those graphics optimizations we pour millions of dollars into before releasing AAA games will matter when the GTX 8020 outperforms a 4090? Hint: Delivering value for actual people is rarely the result of sitting on your hands and waiting for the next big platform, or even r…

prompt engineering can definitely deliver value for a customer, but i don't think it will deliver value to a developer in terms of building a sustainable career.

a different analogy that gets at my original concern: becoming an expert prompt engineer for an particular LLM is like becoming a power user for a piece of proprietary software that isn't getting any more updates.

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#63

Post by radicalriddler »

Personally, I look at prompt engineering the same way I see "software engineering" and think it's a bit of a mockery of the trend.

Other industries have proper certifications for "engineering" that I.T. absolutely doesn't, yet someone who figured out how to center a div calls themselves a software engineer.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/progr... I reckon if you're going to give devs the right to call themselves engineers just because they write code to solve business problems, you don't have much of a leg to stand to judge people whom write natural language into a software solution, and receive output that solves business problems.

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#65

Post by ElFitz »

criddell wrote: post #43
b1n wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But doesn't an engineer's authority come their skill-set and not from peoples perception of them or their job title? When you say diminished, are you are talking from a societal point of view? Prompt Engineering is a fun title in a fast moving and interesting field. Everyone's taking it far too seriously. I'm going off to become a Clay Engineer, that sounds fun!

A Profession Engineer’s authority comes from their education and experience. When they stamp a design or plans, they are putting their reputation and livelihood on the line. If they are negligent, they can be sued for malpractice and may be barred from working as an Engineer in their field. If their employer asks them to do something unethical, they have a duty to refuse. I personally think it’s worth reserving certa…

That's also very US-centric.

In many countries it's more a title associated to education and specific degrees from specific schools than a license to practice some professional organisation could revoke.

While, from my limited knowledge, doctors and lawyers both seem to have some sort of license and controlling body in most, if not all, countries.

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#66

Post by noogle »

beachy wrote: post #30
parpfish wrote: post #4

i feel like people that get really into prompt engineering seem to forget that other people are working on building models that are even better . Do they really think that the tricks they developed to make gpt3.5 work well will still be necessary on gpt9 (or whatever new model replaces gpt)? if you want a long-lasting career in AI you need to work on the actual AI stuff, not just using the AI stuff.

> if you want a long-lasting career in AI you need to work on the actual AI stuff, not just using the AI stuff. Back in the day, when those new fangled relationship database things came on the scene, do you think people would have been well advised to try and find work on the actual database engine itself, instead of the more frivolous work of using the new technology to, say, solve actual business problems?

"prompt engineering" is a self-destructing field. If you use any rigorous approach to optimizing the prompt, you end up with essentially supervised machine -learning: models can (and do) learn the optimal prompt once there is a yardstick for the goodness of the model's response. That's a classical for a data-scientist, but the skill set has little to do with prompts.

If you are not rigorous, then what you are doing is essentially "black art". It may work for some tasks ad-hoc, but with the rapid pace of model improvement your skill will likely become irrelevant/not needed quickly.

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#67

Post by gremlinunderway »

mrleinad wrote: post #21

So, the new thing is that we're going to call everyone an engineer? Carpenter -> Wood engineer Tailor -> Fabric engineer Ceramist -> Clay engineer See how dumb it looks? And maybe the field is too new to have a specific word for it, but calling it "engineer" diminishes the level of actual engineers.

Sorry, this was already on its way out from the very beginning with the term "software engineer".

Outside of tech, being an actual engineer involves universal standards, certifications and the onus and responsibility of failures that the deregulated libertarian paradise of the tech world is impossible to implement.

Actual engineers go through rigorous testing, certification and have universal standards that uphold them to meet these standards regardless of business pressure.

Until the tech and software world have anywhere near that level of scrutiny by public institutions (good luck, all you will hear is the screams of "communism!") then frankly its already looked dumb ever since developers were even called "engineers" to begin with.

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#68

Post by TheCoelacanth »

jw1224 wrote: post #56
mrleinad wrote: post #21

So, the new thing is that we're going to call everyone an engineer? Carpenter -> Wood engineer Tailor -> Fabric engineer Ceramist -> Clay engineer See how dumb it looks? And maybe the field is too new to have a specific word for it, but calling it "engineer" diminishes the level of actual engineers.

This is just how language evolves, stop gatekeeping it. Most engineers these days have never been near an actual engine, and nor do they have any need to.

The real problem is those 18th century jerks who stole "engine" to refer to mechanical devices instead of the original meaning of "skill" or "craft".

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#69

Post by criddell »

ElFitz wrote: post #65
criddell wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Profession Engineer’s authority comes from their education and experience. When they stamp a design or plans, they are putting their reputation and livelihood on the line. If they are negligent, they can be sued for malpractice and may be barred from working as an Engineer in their field. If their employer asks them to do something unethical, they have a duty to refuse. I personally think it’s worth reserving certa…

That's also very US-centric. In many countries it's more a title associated to education and specific degrees from specific schools than a license to practice some professional organisation could revoke. While, from my limited knowledge, doctors and lawyers both seem to have some sort of license and controlling body in most, if not all, countries.

> That’s also very US-centric.

There are quite a few jurisdictions where some Engineer title is protected:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...

Re: So long “prompt engineering,” we hardly knew ya

#70

Post by Tommah »

mrleinad wrote: post #21

So, the new thing is that we're going to call everyone an engineer? Carpenter -> Wood engineer Tailor -> Fabric engineer Ceramist -> Clay engineer See how dumb it looks? And maybe the field is too new to have a specific word for it, but calling it "engineer" diminishes the level of actual engineers.

The joke about self-aggrandizing "X engineer" titles is very old. On "Mama's Family," the main character is essentially a homemaker, but in one episode she calls herself a "domestic engineer" to make it sound more impressive. That episode is from 1987.
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