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Passwords Are Fine

herman.bearblog.dev

131–140 of 169 posts

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#131
post #59

> 2. People don't have their phone on them all the time (and some don't even have a smartphone). I live in rural Western Australia with almost zero phone coverage, and this is a huge problem. I'm terrified of all these services wanting my phone number, or bugging me to turn on phone 2FA, because the moment that happens, I lose access to that service . ChatGPT that everyone is spamming on every discussion? I can't eve…

If you don’t have a smartphone, or your phone cannot connect to a service, why is authentication a problem? If you don’t network access you lose access to the network, this isn’t exactly a surprise.

This an excellent example of the assumptions that are unknowingly carried by many developers.

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#132
Support for passwordless flows via WebAuth was only added to browsers very recently. And it was only with the introduction of Passkeys that the user experience became good enough for regular people to use. Now the keys will auto-sync between devices and can be shared with other people via Bluetooth, etc. It’s too early to say it won’t be well understood or adopted.

> Multi-devicing for authentication is a poor user experience. Even having to go click a link in your mailbox sucks.

Agreed. Passkeys reduce this friction quite a bit since you won’t need to multi-device if you’re already signed in to your platform account. But if you’re borrowing someone else’s computer, then yeah you need to get a key from another device that already has it. If this use case happens to you a lot, I would recommend using a USB security key to store your credentials.

> People don't have their phone on them all the time (and some don't even have a smartphone).

WebAuthn doesn’t require a phone. It only requires you to be using or have handy some device that holds your keys. It can be a laptop or a USB security key. Again, I would recommend a USB security key for people who don’t own a phone or computer. These things are cheap enough for charities to give them out in large numbers and small enough to go anywhere. Keep one on your keychain. If that’s still too much of a problem, then keep your keys in your platform account and see if you can temporarily sign in to your platform account on the device where you are a guest. Just be sure to sign out afterward.

> New users don't understand these methods of authentication.

An old dog can learn new tricks, but it takes time. We’re in a phase where most of the writing on this topic is geared towards developers. That will change. A lot of people seem to prefer native UIs to web based UIs and WebAuthn makes a large part of the sign in process native, so maybe people will find it easier. I certainly do with the implementations I’ve built, though that may be a given.

> They're generally much more complicated to implement than a basic email/password combo.

Agreed and I think this is mostly the fault of the spec. For example, some of the data the client and server have to send to each other can’t be easily serialized to JSON and for some reason, apparently no one thought that was a problem. There are some ways to do it but they are hacky and the auth libraries barely even paper over this problem.

Also, the spec wants a signature counter to be implemented to prevent replay attacks. But Apple’s implementation of Passkeys always reports 0 for the signature count, which I think may be to preserve privacy. I don’t particularly like having to store the signature count either, nor does it seem like a reliable detection method, so Apple’s approach seems ok to me. But then how do I prevent replay attacks? There’s very little information on this subject, let alone guidance on how to handle it.

There’s lots of jargon in the spec that you have to memorize and the libraries that exist today tend to embrace the same jargon.

I think a lot of these wrinkles will be ironed out in time. The momentum is clearly there and the tech has gotten to a point where you can build some really low friction sign in flows. You may bang your head against the wall dealing with some of the wrinkles I mentioned, but the end result can be great. One of my favorite features is that you can build the sign in flow in such a way where the native UI presents the accounts that are available. That means not only does the user not need to type a password, but they don’t need to type their email either. Literally no more typos possible, even for people who don’t use autofill.

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#133
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I live in rural Western Australia with almost zero phone coverage, and this is a huge problem. I'm terrified of all these services wanting my phone number, or bugging me to turn on phone 2FA, because the moment that happens, I lose access to that service. Have you tried enabling Wi-Fi calling or switching to a carrier that supports it? At least for my carrier and iOS, you can send/receive SMS messages (yes, the gree…

For some weird reason, when im travelling with wifi calling, receiving sms messages is a crap shoot. I basically dont get them if theyre sent by a gov agency, bank, etc. I do still get them from android phones. Its weird, i have no idea why.

SMS 2FA often blacklist VOIP and similar systems to avoid abuse. Try receiving SMS 2FA at a Twilio number, for instance – it’s super unreliable. There are virtually no providers where you can reliable receive 2FA via SMS programmatically, with the exception of a handful of companies who use large banks of real SIM cards.

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#134
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a dumbphone. Until recently I could not care less about losing it. But I realised that since it's not PIN protected (I could but don't want to do it), losing is a security issue. People can find my phone, match my phone number to my email address using leaked data, try these credentials on different services and wait until they get a reset password SMS. So by forcing me to add my phone number some services act…

>I have a dumbphone. Until recently I could not care less about losing it. But I realised that since it's not PIN protected (I could but don't want to do it), losing is a security issue. This really isn't a dumb phone specific issue. Even for smartphones if someone stole it they could pop out the sim and if it isn't password protected (most aren't IME), they'll have full access to your phone number.

This is the main reason I changed my SIM to an e-SIM

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, the vast majority of services ignore that principle and MFA is a never-ending daily nightmare. It feels like I can't even take a leak without the phone now.

There's absolutely no reason why you'd need a phone for most services. TOTP generators exist for every device and every platform. Some password managers even automatically copy a TOTP code after autofilling a password field. Of course, you'd lose most security benefits of TOTP, but if all you want is to ignore security concerns and log in without a phone, there are tons of ways to accomplish this. Just set up authy o…

Realistically speaking, the vast majority of the security benefit of TOTP in the wild is "the user doesn't get to choose a weak password", followed by "the persistent secret isn't getting sent over the wire"; being an additional "factor" is faaaar in the distance.

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#136
post #46
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you travel? Because I've gotten international text in dozens of countries in different continents with no problem. Delays I've seen (but also sometimes I also see them in my home country). Usually trying 1-2 times more it gets in time.

It's nice that you were lucky enough for it to work reliably, but it's not a universal experience.

Sure, hence the question

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some weird reason, when im travelling with wifi calling, receiving sms messages is a crap shoot. I basically dont get them if theyre sent by a gov agency, bank, etc. I do still get them from android phones. Its weird, i have no idea why.

SMS 2FA often blacklist VOIP and similar systems to avoid abuse. Try receiving SMS 2FA at a Twilio number, for instance – it’s super unreliable. There are virtually no providers where you can reliable receive 2FA via SMS programmatically, with the exception of a handful of companies who use large banks of real SIM cards.

Twilio has a whole support article on why you probably don't receive certain SMS messages: https://support.twilio.com/hc/en-us/articles/223133447-Not-R...

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#138
post #77

"I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the problem with passwords is password hygiene, not with the method itself" Clearly this guy has never got his password sniffed before, or even heard about it. It's always painful to see someone who doesn't understand something talking about it, and worse, badmouthing it. And, "Notice that all of these problems are solved by fairly simple password hygiene" Clearly th…

Can you please elaborate on SMS 2FA being intercepted or snooped? (Disclosure: working on a product to prevent exactly that and really curious to hear about those hijacking cases.)

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a certain perspective, passkeys are a lot like using "Sign in with Google/Apple/Microsoft account" Because if this passkey stuff takes off with normal people, 98% of passkeys will be stored in cloud accounts with those providers. The weakest link in the security chain is the procedure for when the user forgets their password / loses their phone / gets a rootkit / gets phished / has their e-mail compromised. You…

> 98% of passkeys will be stored in cloud accounts with those providers. They will also (and primarily) be stored in the individual devices, and don't need cloud access to the providers in order to be used. In this sense, it solves one of the main issues with third-party sign-in, i.e. that if the provider decides to lock your account, you get locked out of any linked services. > You can transfer that problem from you…

If your passkey is issued by Google on your Android device, and Google decides to revoke your account for violating some arcane term of service, how long until you lose access to services with those passkeys? At the very least, I imagine you lose it if you get a new device?

Re: Passwords Are Fine

#140
post #5

> My bank only supports SMS 2FA so while I'm travelling I'm effectively cut off from certain functionality EU citizen here. Do you... not have roaming?

In the EU I get an EU cell plan because it's orders of magnitude cheaper than roaming from North America when travelling for a month.

So to log into my bank I have to load the website on my device, enter my username / password, have it send the SMS 2FA, switch to my home SIM card, wait to receive the text message, switch back to my EU SIM card, ensure internet works, then submit the 2FA code to finally log in.

That assumes I haven't forgotten something to poke the SIM card out with. I couldn't find eSIM last time I went to Portugal.

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