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Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

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Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#361
post #357
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a AI research lab for a large tech company and my observations are completely opposed to yours. Almost every researcher I have spoken believes that real risk exists, to some degree or other. Recent surveys of people in industry have largely borne this out - your anecdote sounds more like an anomaly to me.

It doesn't take a PhD to see where it goes. Once good enough AI is built, and we're close to that, it will be replicated by China, Russia and other big dictatorships. What would Russian dictator give for an AI that can lead his army with surgical precision? He would do anything. Other nations will have to follow. There won't be benevolent committees deciding how to use AI for good, it will be about survival. And it's…

Nope. All it takes is a sci-fi essayist. /s

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#362
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, we have "the researchers and PhD's" that you know. On the other, we have published surveys of academics and an open letter from noted experts in the field. One side seems to have much better quality of evidence. "All the oil and gas engineers I work with say climate change isn't a thing." Hmm, wow, that's really persuasive! What would you consider evidence of a significant AI risk? From my point of v…

> One side seems to have much better quality of evidence. Since I AM an expert, I care a lot less about what surveys say. I have a lot more experience working on AI Safety than 99% of the ICM/NeurIPS 2021 authors, and probably close to 100% of the respondents. In fact, I think that reviewing community (ICML/NeurIPS c. 2020) is particularly ineffective and inexperienced at selecting and evaluating good safety research…

>2. Specific evidence that an AI System can be used to aid in the development of WMDs of any variety,

That's not difficult to satisfy. Turns out AI is very good at designing chemical weapons:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/11/ai-dru...

Granted, design is different from actually producing the material, but there are models to help with that too, e.g.:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.05376

Which has zero guardrails for materials not in a blacklist (see page 18). It's too easy to see how to bypass the filter even for known materials, and it definitely won't help with new materials.

I see nothing here that can't be replicated in principle by a not too large non-state actor. It's not like some people haven't already tried this when AI didn't exist in its modern form:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#363
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm dismissing the survey, and I think you should as well. That's an orthogonal issue to actual x-risk, and I covered a bit more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36577523 > I'd personally suggest keeping an eye on white papers from RAND and the like in trying to get some sense of the actual implications in the real world I think this is excellent advice and we're on the same page.

Where can I read RAND white papers on the topic?

I think RAND was used here in the proverbial sense, not the literal sense. They generally do good work, stay away from hype while remaining relevant/timely, and focus on boring but real problems. Sort of that good spot in-between an IEEE Standards Committee and the press team for a VC/CEO/Influencer type. I think OP meant "that type of thing", rather than RAND per se.

But in any case, there is https://www.rand.org/topics/artificial-intelligence.html

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#364
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great way to put it. The counter to "current generation AI is terrifying" seems to fall along the lines of it not being nearly as close to AGI as the layperson believes. But I don't think that matters. I don't believe that LLMs or image/voice/video generative models need to do much beyond what they can do today in order to wreck civilization level disaster. They don't need to become Skynet, learn to operate…

I think LLMs are very close to AGI, lacking only the real-time feedback element (easily enough replicated by running them off batteries). I'm also more sanguine about the existential risks because I have somewhat more confidence in the rationality of AGI than I do in that of humans. I don't think it takes a huge amount of faked primary material (generated phone calls, fuzzy video, etc.) that's massively amplified unt…

In other news an LLM mind virus is sweeping across the Midwest, face book has instituted a post delay queue and free Disney+

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#365
post #362
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One side seems to have much better quality of evidence. Since I AM an expert, I care a lot less about what surveys say. I have a lot more experience working on AI Safety than 99% of the ICM/NeurIPS 2021 authors, and probably close to 100% of the respondents. In fact, I think that reviewing community (ICML/NeurIPS c. 2020) is particularly ineffective and inexperienced at selecting and evaluating good safety research…

>2. Specific evidence that an AI System can be used to aid in the development of WMDs of any variety, That's not difficult to satisfy. Turns out AI is very good at designing chemical weapons: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/11/ai-dru... Granted, design is different from actually producing the material, but there are models to help with that too, e.g.: https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.05376 Which has zero…

These are things you can just look up. The LLM contributes nothing that the internet didn't already provide. Or even textbooks before that. What I mean is actually new capabilities, which weren't available to non-state actors with a broadband connection before.

Also, sarin gas doesn't pose an existential risk to humanity. Or, in the sense that it could, the cat's out of the bag and I'm not sure why we're talking about LLMs as that seems like a dangerous distraction from the real problem, right?

> I see nothing here that can't be replicated in principle by a not too large non-state actor. It's not like some people haven't already tried this when AI didn't exist in its modern form

To my point, they didn't "try"!!!

They DID.

Without LLMs.

Resulting in 13 deaths and thousands of injuries.

I'm not sure that LLMs significantly increase the attack surface here. Possibly they do, and there are some mitigations we could introduce such that the barrier to using LLMs for this sort of thing are higher than the barrier to doing the bad thing in the first place without LLMs. But even in that case, it's not existential. And nowhere I have stated LLMs don't pose risks; they do. My issue is with AGI and x-risk prognostications.

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is ChatGPT 4’s summary of a sequel. I don’t think it’s very good. Maybe another AI would enjoy it though. > Create a summary of a sequel to the movie “War Games” Title: "War Games: Firewall" In "War Games: Firewall", now-adult computer genius David Lightman (Matthew Broderick) has been working as a cyber security consultant for the Pentagon. When an advanced, multi-national cyber-terrorist organization emerges,…

That sounds better than every recent sequel coming out of Hollywood, imho. Would watch.

And better than the actual WarGames sequel.

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as these models will all be used to launder content. In the near future you will likely be able to ask an AI to create the next 15 sequels to the movie war games starring a young matthew broderick. Episode 12 will have a karate kid cross over. But how much of what is there will be an actually new thing? How much will be scraped from my War Games fan fic website that contains scripts of 27 sequels to War Games…

Here is ChatGPT 4’s summary of a sequel. I don’t think it’s very good. Maybe another AI would enjoy it though. > Create a summary of a sequel to the movie “War Games” Title: "War Games: Firewall" In "War Games: Firewall", now-adult computer genius David Lightman (Matthew Broderick) has been working as a cyber security consultant for the Pentagon. When an advanced, multi-national cyber-terrorist organization emerges,…

I feel this example points to a key issue regarding LLM AI. I've read the work on AI story generation from early days to now, and GPT-4's output shows a jump in performance that leaves me both elated and dismayed. The fluency and coherence of the generated narrative is incredible, frankly better than most student writing. On the other hand, I get an overwhelming sense of banality. Looking back on historical speculation about AI, I think there was always a tacit assumption that facility for communication would develop on top of facility for incisive reasoning. Fluency without insight was not expected.

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#368
post #365
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2. Specific evidence that an AI System can be used to aid in the development of WMDs of any variety, That's not difficult to satisfy. Turns out AI is very good at designing chemical weapons: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/11/ai-dru... Granted, design is different from actually producing the material, but there are models to help with that too, e.g.: https://arxiv.org/abs/2304.05376 Which has zero…

These are things you can just look up. The LLM contributes nothing that the internet didn't already provide. Or even textbooks before that. What I mean is actually new capabilities, which weren't available to non-state actors with a broadband connection before. Also, sarin gas doesn't pose an existential risk to humanity. Or, in the sense that it could, the cat's out of the bag and I'm not sure why we're talking abou…

>These are things you can just look up. The LLM contributes nothing that the internet didn't already provide

The internet doesn't allow one to design _new_ weapons, possibly way more effective (which if you read carefully the first story, this one does).

>I'm not sure that LLMs significantly increase the attack surface here.

Being able to ask an AI to develop new deadly varieties which we'll not be able to detect or cure, and may be easy to produce, doesn't increase attack surface?

>Also, sarin gas doesn't pose an existential risk to humanity

Is x-risk the only thing we care about? The entire thread started with arguing x-risk is a distraction. I would be very slightly more comfortable with that argument if people took 'ordinary' risks seriously.

As it is, all camps have their heads in the sand in different ways. The illusion here is that AI advancement changes nothing, so the only thing worth discussing are variations of the current culture war issues, when obviously it does change everything even if completely put aside AGI/alignment arguments. e.g. If labour won't matter for productivity that has very grim political implications.

>To my point, they didn't "try"!!! They DID.

That's the point. Give me an x-risk scenario the doomers warn about, and I'll find you a group of humans which very much want the exact scenario (or something essentially indistinguishable for 99% of humanity) to happen and will happily use AI if it helps them. Amusingly, alignment research is unlikely to help there - it can be argued to increase the risk from humans.

>there are some mitigations we could introduce such that the barrier to using LLMs for this sort of thing

There are many things we can do in theory to mitigate all sorts of issues, which have the nice property of never ever being done. e.g. Yud's favorite disaster scenario appears to be a custom built virus. This relies on biolabs accepting random orders, which leaves the question of why are we allowing this at all (AI or not)? There's no good reason for allowing most crypto to exist, given its current effects on society, even before AGI comes into question, yet we allow it for what reason exactly?

If there's any risk here at all, we can safely rely on humanity doing nothing before anything happens - but in the case of x-risk actually existing, there's no reason to assume we'll have a second chance.

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#369
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I'm not at all sure what the siblings are talking about. I suspect at least one is confusing linear with feed-forward? But I'm also surprised that Hofstadter keys in on this so heavily. The fact that he wrote an entire pop-sci book on recursion would, in my mind, make him (1) less surprised that AR and R aren't so dissimilar and (2) more sensitive to the sorts of issues that make R more difficult to get workin…

I think it has to do with the training regime and fixed-computation time nature of feedforward neural networks. Recurrent neural networks have the recursion as part of the training regime . GPT only has auto-regressive "recursion" as part of the inference runtime regime. I think Hofstadter is surprised that you can appear so intelligent without any recursion in the learning/training regime, with the added implication…

That seems to correspond to the "is or isn't it feed forward" debate going on here, so I guess I see where the confusion comes from (both for him and in terms of calling LLMs FF/not FF)

Re: Douglas Hofstadter changes his mind on Deep Learning and AI risk

#370

In GEB Hofstadter dismisses the idea that AI could understand / compose / feel music like a human. I thought about this a lot when I started using GPT, especially early on when it demonstrated an ability to explain why things were funny or sad, intrinsically human qualities hitherto insulated from machine

I don’t know I’d agree that that was the message of GEB at all. In fact more than anything GEB and I am a Strange Loop convincingly argue that consciousness, understanding, and feeling arise from systems that are no more complex than an information system that feeds on its own output. Though he is troubled by what kind of feedback it is that is required to make that loop into a mind. Hofstadter is why I am not sure w…

To be clear I didn't say this was the idea of GEB, but something DH did say verbatim
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