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A violently true depiction of what war really is

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Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#81

Post by anigbrowl »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #40
stcredzero wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is a part of society. If society tells you to go kill somebody and you do, you can't be a sociopath. I usually like most of your contributions, but reasoning like this bugs me. "Society" in your reasoning is being treated something like a mathematical set. Society isn't so cleanly defined. Even for that, one could still have psychopathic tendencies, be told to by society to go and kill, but go and kill for comple…

I must be missing what ticked you off here. We set up a system where society approves of the use of lethal force. (In fact, many believe the true defining characteristic of a government is the monopoly in the use of force) People are instructed by this system to go kill people. As long as that's all the information we have, there's nothing to indicate that these people care nothing about societal norms. In fact, they…

You're assuming obedience to lawfully delegated authority (ie a chain of command) as the high water mark of societal norms, and reasoning from the perspective that sociopath should be pathologically opposed to anything societal, sort of like the unabomber. But one could be alienated from society in general - in the sense of peaceful civilian life - without totally rejecting all social institutions. In that case, you might be content to work in a war zone and maintain only the most basic connections with family, colleagues and so forth.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#83

Post by ezy »

tfb wrote: post #49
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #21

I am very tempted to flag this. the sociopath thing really rubs me the wrong way -- there are logical flaws with using that label. War is a part of society. If society tells you to go kill somebody and you do, you can't be a sociopath. Having said that, it's a great first-person account of what real combat is like, at least for this one guy. I am concerned the effect on HN discussion will be negative. Hopefully I'm w…

There are some logical flaws with the sociopath label, but there is certainly some truth to it, at least from my own experience. I'll provide a single example. One of my childhood bullies - let's call him Tom - is most definitely a sociopath, and he joined the marines, along with his two brothers who are not unlike him. All three of these guys have been violent for as long as I've known them. During middle school and…

"Because so many people liking such a violent sociopath has always bothered and confused me."

I think it's pretty much what you state, but less evo-psych than being an alpha male. Someone who is a sociopath doesn't really care too much about others most of the time, hence they can be extremely confident individuals in certain circumstances. Confidence is a major factor in social success.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#84

Post by run4yourlives »

gruseom wrote: post #15
roboneal wrote: post #7

Being ex-military and not a sociopath -- he lost me when he said that the "vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths" We constantly made decisions that increased the risk to ourselves while trying to minimize the risk to civilians. That is not a mindset of a sociopath.

In your experience, what determines the degree to which a unit will uphold such standards vs. degenerating into what the OP calls "sociopaths"? Is it a matter of training? leadership? character?

Leadership. (That's my experience, which isn't the op's)

The problem is that leadership isn't a consistent action. Very capable and honest leaders can be sullied by PTSD (one symptom of which is lack of empathy) given enough combat experience.

However the degree this affects a unit, and the starting point, is primarily due to the leader. Especially in combat units.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#85

Post by phaus »

anigbrowl wrote: post #77
phaus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand very well that you yourself don't think that one has to be a sociopath to become an infantryman, but that is exactly what the author is claiming in this article. That's why so many former military guys (such as myself) think that this article is idiotic. There are definitely a disproportionate amount of people who return from war with psychological issues, but sociopaths are pretty rare. Many people who…

There are probably a few people who choose to become military contractors because they are sick individuals that enjoy killing their fellow man 'Sociopath' has become unfortunately loaded word. I certainly don't think of a serial killer or sadist when I see that term, but rather someone who is emotionally and socially detached from their surroundings, out of ongoing necessity as much as anything else. It's callous in…

I agree. Most sociopaths will never commit a violent act and often lead somewhat normal lives. I was just trying to use the term in the same context the author did. There are some sociopaths that are serial killers and sadists, but most sociopaths are not.

There have been rare cases where complete lunatics have joined the military during a time of war for the sole purpose of killing people. I can't remember the name but I think there was at least one soldier from Vietnam who returned to the United States and became a serial killer.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#86

Post by run4yourlives »

mattdeboard wrote: post #6

As a former Marine infantryman, and a former Marine PR idiot, I think his numbers are off but a lot of the concepts are right, with a caveat. It's not sociopathy of the organic sort. It's the kind of detachment from prolonged exposure to extreme, unmitigated stress. So don't take this article as justification to feel like there's something mentally wrong with people who join a combat arms unit.

So in other words: PTSD.

His numbers are off because his "80%" of sociopaths are more like 2% according to real studies. The rest more than likely are dealing with managing their own PTSD symptoms.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#87

Post by fleitz »

mikeryan wrote: post #54
roboneal wrote: post #7

Being ex-military and not a sociopath -- he lost me when he said that the "vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths" We constantly made decisions that increased the risk to ourselves while trying to minimize the risk to civilians. That is not a mindset of a sociopath.

This is also a guy who left the gov't military to become a "private military contractor". He's a lifer and sometimes you have to try to bring everyone to your level by casting them as "sociopaths" in order to sleep at night. We do it for real, time and time again, with no other motivation but pay, leave, and the chance to brutalise whomever we deem the “enemy”. scary.

Yeah, the guys who aren't PMCs are doing the same thing except for the "dulce et decorum est" reasons instead of the cash.

People don't sign up for the military because they really think it's sweet and fitting to die for one's country, they sign up for the military because it's how they get into college or out of their shitty 2000 person town.

I dated a girl who served, one day when I was ranting about recruiters working high schools and the unfairness of being recruited after exposure to 12 years government hype, and she said to me "You know, the army is what got me out of "

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#88

Post by run4yourlives »

angrycoder wrote: post #23
jakeonthemove wrote: post #11

Street fights and other violent encounters are the same. There is no honor, no right way to fight and nothing good comes out of it except you surviving. It's nothing like video games - martial arts won't help (well, beyond helping keep you in shape), a bullet will kill you in a horrible, slow way (dying instantly means you're lucky) or leave you with a disability for life, a simple knife slash will leave you in a hos…

>martial arts won't help This is patently false and completely ridiculous. Someone who is trained to take and give a hit will always have a significantly better chance in a fight.

Actually I don't think so, and I'm also a veteran.

The winner is most often the person more inclined to inflict damage on the other combatant. The idea that you are worried about hitting and being hit means you are still operating in some sort of a rules-based sphere. This is why martial-arts isn't really taught to soldiers beyond a few "look how you can do this" training sessions.

The ultimate combatant is the person that sees the weapon within arms reach that will end the fight - permanently. Most people never achieve this level of death dealing, because it's a really, really abnormal way to operate.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#89

Post by bdunbar »

mattdeboard wrote: post #6

As a former Marine infantryman, and a former Marine PR idiot, I think his numbers are off but a lot of the concepts are right, with a caveat. It's not sociopathy of the organic sort. It's the kind of detachment from prolonged exposure to extreme, unmitigated stress. So don't take this article as justification to feel like there's something mentally wrong with people who join a combat arms unit.

Former 0311.

After I EASd I realized that a _lot_ of perfectly normal behavior in the service is downright _weird_ in the civilian world.

It was perfectly normal to make my rack (bed), tuck those hospital corners in, get the folds just so ... then sleep on top of the made bed, wrapped in a poncho liner or a comforter from the PX.

Because you save time and hassle in the morning. Toss the blanket in the wall-locker, tighten up the green wool blanket and you're good to go.

A perfectly normal adaptation to circumstances.

As with sleeping on top of the covers, so goes a lot of behavior that civilians would (do) label sociopathic: laughing at grisly crap. Gallows humor. A cynical narrow view of the world. And so on.

You'd be mentally defective to NOT adapt to those circumstances.

Me .. I think about some of the stuff I thought was funny, some of the things I did when I was 20, and I'm appalled. I've got my funny sea stories - other things I don't talk about. Or think about, much.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#90

Post by jules »

itmag wrote: post #41

As a personal development junkie, I find war to be very problematic (well duh). Killing people is just so... unenlightened. Then again, I find the warrior ethos or what you might call the male Warrior archetype to be of great interest. It's pretty obvious that this is something that the modern world very much lacks, at least we don't have any formal initiation rites for it (going to Marine boot camp might qualify tho…

If it weren't so elaborate I would be convinced that that website is a joke.
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