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A violently true depiction of what war really is

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Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#21
I am very tempted to flag this. the sociopath thing really rubs me the wrong way -- there are logical flaws with using that label. War is a part of society. If society tells you to go kill somebody and you do, you can't be a sociopath.

Having said that, it's a great first-person account of what real combat is like, at least for this one guy. I am concerned the effect on HN discussion will be negative. Hopefully I'm wrong.

The United States made a huge mistake in moving to an all-volunteer army in the 1970s. With a draft and mandatory conscription, everybody had the common experience of serving and perhaps doing really bad things in the line of duty. As it is now, the vast majority of civilians have absolutely no idea what military service is like, as the author points out.

In this lack of context everybody becomes really impressionable. Not only can the military manipulate public opinion through selective release of information, other soldiers like this one can also. When the majority of people don't have context, they'll believe anything.

This is why you couldn't get away with writing a really negative article about WWII right after the war. It wasn't that somehow the war wasn't terribly horrible, it was that the average Joe reading it would immediately say something like "yeah, but that's not the way it was for most people" or "you think that's bad? I remember when..."

We don't have that kind of audience now. Once again, as the author points out, most of the readers only know cartoon violence and have never even hunted an animal. So people are left substituting other experiences and trying to draw rough analogies. The one thing I know for sure is that different people in different units can have vastly different impressions of a conflict. In my mind, this article would have been better with less "I'm the sane one and the other soldiers are crazy" and more "Here's another view"

I would also note that it has become fashionable for authors to say they have all sorts of combat experience when they don't. I'm sure this author isn't one of those people, but I've learned over time to be suspicious of people who wear the grisly warrior mantle as a way to get around my critical thinking skills. This area is just really difficult to discuss, especially when it's about an ongoing operation.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#22

I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of women in children in the process.

What games? MW and the like, or the hypothetical game he was describing?

Any type of game where you shoot another human being is F*d up. The hypothetical scenario where you can accidentally kill innocents does not justify the game.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#23

Street fights and other violent encounters are the same. There is no honor, no right way to fight and nothing good comes out of it except you surviving. It's nothing like video games - martial arts won't help (well, beyond helping keep you in shape), a bullet will kill you in a horrible, slow way (dying instantly means you're lucky) or leave you with a disability for life, a simple knife slash will leave you in a hos…

>martial arts won't help

This is patently false and completely ridiculous. Someone who is trained to take and give a hit will always have a significantly better chance in a fight.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#24

I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of women in children in the process.

You have empathy issues. Plain and simple. :P

I find the source of most of the fun is the initial hit of adrenaline that lasts for about 10 minutes when playing multiplayer. It gets pretty old after that so I rarely play them. I have a large stack of shrinkwrapped freebies including war fps that I haven't yet touched dating back to 2009. Usually I just give them away.

I prefer the fps games where complete suspension of disbelief is required like the Dooms/Quakes. First time I played that and I raised the flashlight to see that I was about to get mauled I almost wet myself. No empathy required as it is so clearly not real. I however start to feel guilty about leading units in Civ to die. I empathize with you. :P

Edit: Since this is getting downvoted I'll add another bit to clarify. Games that simulate anything are still pretty simple and if you don't bring your imagination to supplement the experience, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. I find it more fun to play who I am than to go with the assumed pigeonhole for success.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#25

I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of women in children in the process.

It's because, ultimately, games of all sorts (not just video) are in this funny realm where we don't think too much about what we're doing beyond the mechanics of the game. The story wrapped around the mechanics becomes the chrome added to the machine that generates the fun; required for the total experience, but maybe not the essence of the game.

After the housing crisis in the US, do you still play Monopoly? How can you without sympathizing with all those people who got foreclosed on while the banking fatcats got rich?

The tight feedback loops of videogames make us examine them more closely, but, truly, games have always done this.

All that said, I don't enjoy CoD and the like because I'm not a FPS kind of guy, and I don't like the glamorization of war. But I had a lot of fun playing Warhammer 40k for a short time after college, so... does that make me a sociopath?

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#26

I am very tempted to flag this. the sociopath thing really rubs me the wrong way -- there are logical flaws with using that label. War is a part of society. If society tells you to go kill somebody and you do, you can't be a sociopath. Having said that, it's a great first-person account of what real combat is like, at least for this one guy. I am concerned the effect on HN discussion will be negative. Hopefully I'm w…

Why are you "sure this author isn't one of those people"?

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#27
post #3
post #2

Wow, awesome read. If this guy consulted on a video game I would never play it. Mowing down Russian civilians in the game MW2 was more than F'd up enough for me.

If they want to make a video game depict war... Have a bad guy escape through some civilians, you shoot after him. Then after coming closer find a parent/child dead with another child screaming over his/her family's body. That would be a scene that makes people remember what war really is. But war games are not about war. They are about shooting things and feeling justified about it.

Indeed. War games are about war in much the same way Whack-A-Mole is about groundskeeping.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#28

Street fights and other violent encounters are the same. There is no honor, no right way to fight and nothing good comes out of it except you surviving. It's nothing like video games - martial arts won't help (well, beyond helping keep you in shape), a bullet will kill you in a horrible, slow way (dying instantly means you're lucky) or leave you with a disability for life, a simple knife slash will leave you in a hos…

>martial arts won't help This is patently false and completely ridiculous. Someone who is trained to take and give a hit will always have a significantly better chance in a fight.

How so? All I ever heard from people who did serious martial arts is that an attacker with a weapon will always be in advantage, and an attacker with no moral qualms even more so. Your karate won't help you much if someone attacks you with a knife, or a shattered bottle.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#29

I am very tempted to flag this. the sociopath thing really rubs me the wrong way -- there are logical flaws with using that label. War is a part of society. If society tells you to go kill somebody and you do, you can't be a sociopath. Having said that, it's a great first-person account of what real combat is like, at least for this one guy. I am concerned the effect on HN discussion will be negative. Hopefully I'm w…

War is a part of society. If society tells you to go kill somebody and you do, you can't be a sociopath.

I usually like most of your contributions, but reasoning like this bugs me. "Society" in your reasoning is being treated something like a mathematical set. Society isn't so cleanly defined. Even for that, one could still have psychopathic tendencies, be told to by society to go and kill, but go and kill for completely disparate, possibly psychopathic reasons.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#30

I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of women in children in the process.

Have you ever watched an action movie and enjoyed it? If so, you should be aware that it is essentially the same thing as playing a violent video game.

Have you ever read a fantasy/sci-fi/historical novel where a conflict took place and people died? It's still the same thing.

Did you ever read comic books or watch loony tunes? Both are full of violence.

Aggressive behavior is sadly just a consequence of being a member of the animal kingdom. However, we are gifted with an intelligence that allows us to understand that violence is not a favorable attribute in any society, so we developed artificial outlets for our aggressive tendencies in the form of video games, movies, music, comic books, sports, and even literature. There isn't anything unhealthy about playing a violent video game. I suspect if someone did create the game that was described in the article, that most people who currently enjoy violent games wouldn't enjoy playing it, which incidentally happens to be the author's point.

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