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A violently true depiction of what war really is

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11–20 of 264 posts

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#11
Street fights and other violent encounters are the same.

There is no honor, no right way to fight and nothing good comes out of it except you surviving.

It's nothing like video games - martial arts won't help (well, beyond helping keep you in shape), a bullet will kill you in a horrible, slow way (dying instantly means you're lucky) or leave you with a disability for life, a simple knife slash will leave you in a hospital for a long time and a simple hit with fist can dislocate your jaw, which is really terrible (you can't eat, can't speak, your face is swollen, you drool all the time).

Sadly, kids don't seem to understand, and most people laugh when I tell them the best strategy is RRF - Reason (give them the wallet, try to solve it with words), Run (as fast as you can and don't look back), Fight (only if all else fails, and fight as if your life depends on it)...

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#12
"the vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths"

Society can't function without socially acceptable outlets for this and other anti-social behaviors. That is the best justification I have found for a long list of things that don't seem to make sense in an enlightened society.

What would the world be like if we didn't have the Army and NFL? A lot of people would find new, more chaotic outlets for their aggression.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#13
Reminds me of my father (who was in the Airborne) looking over my shoulder playing the training in America's Army.

"That's pretty realistic. Do they have a level where you have to go knock on somebody's door and tell them their son was killed in a training exercise?"

That said, I feel like this article, like the censors, gives video games much too much credit. Glorification of violence is everywhere in our culture and fiction; I'd imagine at least 95% of gamers understand intuitively that the games they play bear very slight likeness at best to the reality of war (although probably more in the sense that they might be killed themselves rather than that they might kill others.)

After all, one of the things (multiplayer) video games do teach you is that combat is seriously dangerous. Pop out of cover for one second and you can get shot in the head, bam, you're dead. In a game, that means respawning; nobody seriously believes that's how it works in real life. In that sense, I have to think that these games, as unrealistic as they are, are still the most realistic fictional depiction of war you can experience-- and the lessons you learn are much more valuable than those of, say, comic books.

Which is not to say that we don't have a bit of a violence problem in our culture (though I'm on the side of Steven Pinker in thinking that our violence problem is probably better than it ever has been). But the problem is not the kids running around playing cops and robbers. The problem is the kids who never properly learn the distinction between playing and hitting-- and worst of all, those who learn it by the maxim that "If you hit your brother, I'll hit you even harder."

That's what we should be talking about.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#14
post #9

Whoa, I know the guy who runs this website, along with several of the authors. He actually just launched it a few days ago, primarily for the Penny Arcade forum readers. Small internet.

You ought to let him know that it seems to be down right now: http://i.imgur.com/FnZYn.png

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#15
post #7

Being ex-military and not a sociopath -- he lost me when he said that the "vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths" We constantly made decisions that increased the risk to ourselves while trying to minimize the risk to civilians. That is not a mindset of a sociopath.

In your experience, what determines the degree to which a unit will uphold such standards vs. degenerating into what the OP calls "sociopaths"? Is it a matter of training? leadership? character?

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#16
post #4

The Onion has its own take on the difference between real war and video game war: an "ultra-realistic" war game featuring endless paperwork, awaiting orders, and repairing trucks: http://www.theonion.com/video/ultrarealistic-modern-warfare-... (I don't mean to trivialize war by this, and I should point out that The Onion is satirical.)

I read a post by a Marine once that said that a realistic war game would simulate guard duty by staring at a black screen for hours, and then send a minute flash of light several hours into the game when you're numb and tired.

Reminds me of the description of the game Desert Bus...

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/post/152110-

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#17
post #9

Whoa, I know the guy who runs this website, along with several of the authors. He actually just launched it a few days ago, primarily for the Penny Arcade forum readers. Small internet.

You ought to let him know that it seems to be down right now: http://i.imgur.com/FnZYn.png

I'm doing what I can, but given my limited means cloud storage, better hosting, and the like are unavailable to me. The site is cached & is still up - CloudFront is just throttling bandwidth, as far as I can tell. Recommendations would be appreciated.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#18

I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of women in children in the process.

What games? MW and the like, or the hypothetical game he was describing?

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#19

As a former Marine infantryman, and a former Marine PR idiot, I think his numbers are off but a lot of the concepts are right, with a caveat. It's not sociopathy of the organic sort. It's the kind of detachment from prolonged exposure to extreme, unmitigated stress. So don't take this article as justification to feel like there's something mentally wrong with people who join a combat arms unit.

I understand very well that you yourself don't think that one has to be a sociopath to become an infantryman, but that is exactly what the author is claiming in this article. That's why so many former military guys (such as myself) think that this article is idiotic.

There are definitely a disproportionate amount of people who return from war with psychological issues, but sociopaths are pretty rare. Many people who have been in combat have a difficult time relating to the rest of the world, but it doesn't make them psychopaths.

There are probably a few people who choose to become military contractors because they are sick individuals that enjoy killing their fellow man, but I suspect that the majority of the people who go that route do so because they leave the military without any marketable skills and find it hard to pass up the six-figure incomes that are offered to military contractors in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Just to clarify a bit, I don't disagree with his assessment of the video game / movie industry, just his statements about soldiers being sadistic killing machines without a sense of morality.

Re: A violently true depiction of what war really is

#20
post #7

Being ex-military and not a sociopath -- he lost me when he said that the "vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths" We constantly made decisions that increased the risk to ourselves while trying to minimize the risk to civilians. That is not a mindset of a sociopath.

From what I could tell from my time in the service, your view of your situation is highly dependent upon who you are serving with. I'm willing to bet it is highly likely that the group this supposed sociopath served with had no such compulsions. Without proper oversight, I could easily see a group mindset of this kind developing. As such, I'm willing to bet he thinks all soldiers are like him, when the reality is that he is likely the outlier.
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