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Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

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Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to know why you imply that the (GNU?) AGPL is a bad licence. AGPL-3.0-or-later is a very sensible FOSS licence in my opinion; some awkward punctuation is about the most I can level against it.

The short of it is that it doesn't do what people think it does. Enforcement of the AGPL is almost exclusively on "please comply" basis rather than the (relatively) battle-tested GPL. It's not "just" the GPL with an extra demand that it also applies on network software, it's much more complex than that. The AGPL is basically a EULA disguised as a license. It tries to solve the network problem (aka SaaSification, a pr…

Surely they didn't mess up so badly that you can just contract out the modifications. Why not just require that the code is available, period?

The problem that AGPL tries to fix is quite tricky though, since AFAIK you can do whatever you want with GPL code, unless you want to publish anything. And SaaS is not technically publishing the code but only its behaviour (even though for all intents and purposes this is the same as an obfuscated binary, especially in places where deobfuscation is illegal).

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to know why you imply that the (GNU?) AGPL is a bad licence. AGPL-3.0-or-later is a very sensible FOSS licence in my opinion; some awkward punctuation is about the most I can level against it.

The short of it is that it doesn't do what people think it does. Enforcement of the AGPL is almost exclusively on "please comply" basis rather than the (relatively) battle-tested GPL. It's not "just" the GPL with an extra demand that it also applies on network software, it's much more complex than that. The AGPL is basically a EULA disguised as a license. It tries to solve the network problem (aka SaaSification, a pr…

Not parent, but thank you for the thoughtful explanation.

Which free/open source licences do you think would be better for the specific purpose of preventing SaaSification while actually being usable/useful in real life?

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#83
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I do not understand this fully, but this sounds like effectively bypassing the licence to do something which wasn't originally intended, or what the contributors or authors didn't agree to. Does this put other licences at risk? What if someone releases something under a licence, and there is a new version that is less or more permissive, allowing the original author's intention to 'vetoed'?

It seems like GFDL has an optional declaration that is referred to as the "Or later"-clause. Apparently wikipedia opted for that clause allowing automatic migration of licenses for all content to newer versions of the license. In collaboration with the organisation behind GFDL, they used that clause to re-license everything under CC. I think doing something like this is not somethings that should be taken lightly. yo…

> It is good to know, as an author, that you should not accept releasing stuff under a license that has an "or later" clause.

Definitely: https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4077/can-the-...

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#84
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You mean like that time where they added lenience for people building FDA compliant medical devices? Oh wait, they didn't. No, they instead told the people wanting to build those devices that they were supporting Tivoization and that the only road to compliance was to change the law.[0] The FSF has a far greater history of telling other people to shove it than they have been trying to work together with possible memb…

In that very article the FSF says to comply with both the GPL and "regulatons" companies are free to employ a ROM. Nowhere in that article does it say the regulations must change.

Why even bring this article up? The FSF seem pretty reasonable here. Not to mention I couldn't find any evidence on the web of the FDA requiring Tivoization for medical devices.

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#85
post #21

Could someone more knowledgeable explain what the practical effect of this license change is? As far as I can see, there isn't much of a difference?

I don't know if relevant for Wikipedia, but in CC BY-SA 3.0 where the entire licence was invalidated if you made a mistake with the attribution. I was reading of an exploit where an organisation is publishing photos under the 3.0 licence, searching for minor infractions and then extorting random bloggers and businesses for infringement. I believe the 4.0 licence addresses this by allowing users to fix a faulty attrib…

I wasted a few hundred issues on those trolls. I wrote about it here: https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/abmahnung-creative-commons

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to know why you imply that the (GNU?) AGPL is a bad licence. AGPL-3.0-or-later is a very sensible FOSS licence in my opinion; some awkward punctuation is about the most I can level against it.

The short of it is that it doesn't do what people think it does. Enforcement of the AGPL is almost exclusively on "please comply" basis rather than the (relatively) battle-tested GPL. It's not "just" the GPL with an extra demand that it also applies on network software, it's much more complex than that. The AGPL is basically a EULA disguised as a license. It tries to solve the network problem (aka SaaSification, a pr…

Thank you for your detailed reply.

> it is (theoretically) trivially easy to work around - just contract out your modifications, have the contractor keep the copyright and act as the only user of the software with an indefinite license

Would this not require the contractor to comply with section 13? At this point, you would be paying the contractor for ensuring legal compliance instead of doing this yourself, which is something that companies sometimes do anyway.

> AGPL doesn't actually say how compliance with section 13 must be achieved... MIDI is technically a network protocol

MIDI is indeed a network protocol, but I wouldn't read section 13 as requiring that the network used for the offer of source code or the source code itself is the only network used by the software. If you had a remote MIDI sequencer that users could connect their musical instrument to, it would almost certainly have something like a Web interface as well (MIDI isn't by itself an internet protocol, which I'm sure you already know) where the source code could be offered.

Ambiguities inherent to the diversity of software don't negate the general legal principle of good faith. Posting a link to a repository on GitHub with your modifications is usually sufficient for compliance, and edge cases like where GitHub is down or blocked for your user can be resolved with good-faith email correspondence. Given how much fuzziness there is in law, I don't think it would help much to be more prescriptive in say, requiring the offer to be made over HTTP.

> or-later is generally a bad clause for any license, since it hands over all licensing grants to whatever entity you trusted to write the license

This is true, but I consider it to be the lesser of two evils. The evil that or-later avoids is that of licence incompatibilities and ambiguities, which are frequently complicated by a difficulty in tracing the authorship of older software. Those programs which were licensed with an or-later clause can typically be 'rescued' by a new revision published by the licence steward, similar to how the FSF carved out an exception to the GFDL for Wikimedia as discussed elsewhere in this thread. The evil that or-later causes, that the licence steward makes a compromising change, is quite limited: since they can't restrict rights beyond the older licence, the worst-case scenario is that they go against the spirit of copyleft and make it a fully permissible licence, which is still 100% FOSS and in practice the FSF are not going to do any time soon.

Again, thanks for going into depth. I agree that there are improvements to be made, and I certainly wouldn't consider the AGPL-3.0-or-later to be the 'be all and end all' of FOSS licensing, but I'm not yet convinced it's a bad choice! :)

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The short of it is that it doesn't do what people think it does. Enforcement of the AGPL is almost exclusively on "please comply" basis rather than the (relatively) battle-tested GPL. It's not "just" the GPL with an extra demand that it also applies on network software, it's much more complex than that. The AGPL is basically a EULA disguised as a license. It tries to solve the network problem (aka SaaSification, a pr…

Thank you for your detailed reply. > it is (theoretically) trivially easy to work around - just contract out your modifications, have the contractor keep the copyright and act as the only user of the software with an indefinite license Would this not require the contractor to comply with section 13? At this point, you would be paying the contractor for ensuring legal compliance instead of doing this yourself, which i…

> If you had a remote MIDI sequencer that users could connect their musical instrument to, it would almost certainly have something like a Web interface as well...

Not at all. There are tons of MIDI devices which communicate over MIDI, and which don't have another network interface. Most electronic keyboards fall into this category, for example.

> MIDI isn't by itself an internet protocol, which I'm sure you already know

AGPL doesn't care. MIDI is a network protocol; whether it's bridged to the general Internet is irrelevant to the license.

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your detailed reply. > it is (theoretically) trivially easy to work around - just contract out your modifications, have the contractor keep the copyright and act as the only user of the software with an indefinite license Would this not require the contractor to comply with section 13? At this point, you would be paying the contractor for ensuring legal compliance instead of doing this yourself, which i…

> If you had a remote MIDI sequencer that users could connect their musical instrument to, it would almost certainly have something like a Web interface as well... Not at all. There are tons of MIDI devices which communicate over MIDI, and which don't have another network interface. Most electronic keyboards fall into this category, for example. > MIDI isn't by itself an internet protocol, which I'm sure you already…

This is true, but if you were selling a physical musical instrument which included AGPL-licensed software, you could also include a physical copy of the source code on a DVD as per section 6(a). Your argument still stands, but I don't think it is against the spirit of the the licence nor a significant legal risk to ignore section 13 in that (very unusual) case.

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever consider that it is exciting for someone to have completed this work successfully? Would you also say it’s strange for someone to be excited that they’re done with class, or finished an exam, or successfully closed an old bug? A better question is why everyone has to be so negative.

It's typical American usage where everything is awesome, amazing or exciting. From my British view, without reference to a dictionary, awesome is when you hear fighter jets zoom overhead, or a metal band from in front of the stage, or Niagara Falls, or a mile-long freight train full of rocks shaking the ground as it passes. The target has strength, size and power. An amazing thing is far beyond normal expectations in…

> It's typical American usage where everything is awesome, amazing or exciting

there are two aspects of American usage in play, just want to clarify. One is that Americans simply are more optimistic in the way that de Tocqueville noticed 200 years ago. Then layered on top of that are regional American differences where people in the northeast are optimistic but speak in a grumpier way ya fackin bastid, people in the middle are, okadiddlydokily, friendlier how they win friends and influence people, and people on the west coast really lay the positivity on thick, double rainbow all the way.

Re: Wikipedia switches to CC BY-SA 4.0 license

#90
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The short of it is that it doesn't do what people think it does. Enforcement of the AGPL is almost exclusively on "please comply" basis rather than the (relatively) battle-tested GPL. It's not "just" the GPL with an extra demand that it also applies on network software, it's much more complex than that. The AGPL is basically a EULA disguised as a license. It tries to solve the network problem (aka SaaSification, a pr…

Not parent, but thank you for the thoughtful explanation. Which free/open source licences do you think would be better for the specific purpose of preventing SaaSification while actually being usable/useful in real life?

I agree with the above commenter that the problem is that SaaSification is a use case of software, rather than properly/entirely a distribution model. Trying to prevent SaaSification falls outside of the available scope of copyright law and thus free/open source licenses entirely. It's the job of an End User License Agreement or a "Mutually Assured Destruction" Patent "Grant" or a Trademark Embargo, not a copyright license/open source license.

The fact that all of those options (EULAs, explosive patent grants, strict trademark enforcement) additionally sound so antithetical to free/open source licenses does seem to directly reflect that "Software Freedom 0" paradox that preventing SaaSification tells users how they can't use the software, which is the very opposite of a modern software freedom. (The FSF probably made a massive mistake in accepting the AGPL as anything more than GPL fan fiction, because it does seem to reflect that they don't trust their own software freedoms and will accept some unfortunate compromises on them.)

I don't know if there is an easy answer for how you build free/open source software and prevent SaaSification without also terribly compromising some of the core virtues of what free/open source software was meant to uphold in the first place.

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