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Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

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Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#81

Post by vsnf »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #77
franciscop wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from Spain we have a similar difference between like and love that you don't in English so it might be difficult to grasp. Basically we have a middle-level between both of them: 1. I like you. Me gustas. Suki-desu -> very early in the relationship, or to start off 2. [blank]. Te quiero. Daisuki-desu -> formal couple, to express feelings of love 2.5 I love you -> formal couple after long time dating I believe,…

There's also "koi shiteru" which is even higher maybe "you're my soulmate"

>koi shiteru

Are you sure this isn't actually "aishiteru (愛してる)"? I've never heard of 'koishiteru', but 'aishiteru' occupies roughly the same level you described.

Actually, I have heard of 'koishiteru' (which I assume is 恋してる) but usually in the euphemistic context of sex.

Additionally, and not totally related, "soulmate", rendered in katakana (ソールメイト, sorumeito) is often used to breezily describe someone, often a coworker or classmate, with whom you have some level of camaraderie or friendship with. It is a perfectly unserious concept, which is amusing given its weightiness in English.

Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#82

Post by andyferris »

franciscop wrote: post #66
crazygringo wrote: post #60

> Is it like or is it love? It's definitely just like. Sure, we say "I loved that donut" or "I love her personality!" but you'd never just straight-up say "I love you" with that meaning because it would be completely misunderstood. So this whole article seems premised on a mistranslation that the author brings up but never actually admits.

Coming from Spain we have a similar difference between like and love that you don't in English so it might be difficult to grasp. Basically we have a middle-level between both of them: 1. I like you. Me gustas. Suki-desu -> very early in the relationship, or to start off 2. [blank]. Te quiero. Daisuki-desu -> formal couple, to express feelings of love 2.5 I love you -> formal couple after long time dating I believe,…

I always thought “te amo” translates to “I’m in love with you”. The “in love” makes it very unambiguous exactly what kind of love you mean (whereas I can say “I love you” in an unromantic way, to my kids or whatever).

If you want to say “te quiero” without bringing up the word “love” (and risk being interpreted as being “in love”) you might try use phrases like “I really care for you” or talk about feeling close or that they are important to you. I agree the phrasing is awkward. I really like the Spanish phrase “te quiero” because it’s so much simpler! What is the phrase for 2.5?

The author seems to not realise in English you can say “I (really) like you - will you be my girlfriend/boyfriend?” which would imply you want an exclusive relationship. It can happen this way but I agree the prevailing culture might generally be murkier.

Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#83

Post by lb4r »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #28
lb4r wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it's up to the individual whether they find something rude or not. It's not an objective truth, and it certainly varies between cultures. On top of that, different forms of communication have different conventions and practices. Slack is different from normal texts, which are different from emails, and so on, and they permeate your life to various degrees.

It's rather meaningless to let the receiver decide. It means that the only safe-not-to-be-rude option is to adhere to the strictest interpretation of rudeness. At the extreme sensitivity, you basically can't communicate with anyone unless you ask their preferences beforehand over a confirmed-not-rude channel. Following this direction puts the default for each medium, regardless of its properties, into "it's rude to a…

I'm just saying that what someone may perceive as rudeness, someone else may not, and vice versa. Social interaction and communication is a balance between many things, and if you don't take your potential for rudeness into consideration at all, people will probably not like you very much (which I guess some people are fine with). Either way, I don't think anyone would advocate for taking things to the extremes mentioned in your post.

Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#85

Post by franciscop »

andyferris wrote: post #82
franciscop wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from Spain we have a similar difference between like and love that you don't in English so it might be difficult to grasp. Basically we have a middle-level between both of them: 1. I like you. Me gustas. Suki-desu -> very early in the relationship, or to start off 2. [blank]. Te quiero. Daisuki-desu -> formal couple, to express feelings of love 2.5 I love you -> formal couple after long time dating I believe,…

I always thought “te amo” translates to “I’m in love with you”. The “in love” makes it very unambiguous exactly what kind of love you mean (whereas I can say “I love you” in an unromantic way, to my kids or whatever). If you want to say “te quiero” without bringing up the word “love” (and risk being interpreted as being “in love”) you might try use phrases like “I really care for you” or talk about feeling close or t…

The thing with the 3. in both Spanish and Japanese is that they are unambiguously for romantic relationships*, if you wanted to say "I like/love pancakes" you'd say "me gustan/encantan las tortitas", with "encantan" being the superlative of like, you wouldn't use love*.

There is no 2.5 in Spanish/Japanese AFAIK? Like the 2 can be extended to include 2.5. I wanted to point that out, that IMHO in English "I love you" as a romantic phrase in a couple feels to be in a bit of an awkward position between 2 and 3; when you are starting/just a couple it's too early to say it, when you have found your soulmate and are totally in love it's not strong enough of a feeling.

* weeell, technically, "amo/amar" can be used as a figure of speech in some situations where it's not purely romantic; but it's kind of uncommon and a wordplay, like trying to describe that you are in love with pancakes everyone would understand it's not "real love", you just want to express how much you like them.

Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#86

Post by lovemenot »

bluepizza wrote: post #70
coldtea wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter, we can still talk about Western culture (meaning mostly Anglosaxon in this context, and including Europe in others) and Japanese culture. It's about defaults and majority/average preferences, not about "every single one does this" and it gets tiring to remind people otherwise, as if they don't know.

It does matter, because the conversation is inaccurate at best when one tries to generalize their own personal experiences as the whole Western spectrum. Dating in Alabama is quite different from Rhode Island. We don't hold enough information to understand "defaults" or "majorities". Heck, we are at Hacker News, hardly the epicenter of social butterflies. So even if there was such a thing as default, we wouldn't know…

I won't argue with your perspective on Western culture. I neither agree nor disagree.

But, I will say that to a greater degree than you perhaps would imagine, Japanese people by and large do know what to expect from other Japanese in minute contextual detail. And with that knowledge, they try very hard to meet others' expectations.

Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#87

Post by noisy_boy »

kbenson wrote: post #29
cj wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I use delayed send at work, it’s for optics. If I’m working outside of business hours (a few instances per week) I don’t like to slack my direct reports because I personally don’t want to create an “always on” culture at our company. If your manager messages you at all hours of the day and on weekends, it can become unclear whether the same is expected of you. So, I like to delay messages to 8am the next mor…

Yes, where there's a large power imbalance, you have to take that into consideration. I manage people, and if I message one in their off time and it's not an emergency or something I really need them to answer if they see, I'll be careful to state clearly that no reply is needed or we can follow up on Monday or whenever they are next on. Its the same reason I don't make jokes deprecating them to them within a group (…

> 'll be careful to state clearly that no reply is needed or we can follow up on Monday or whenever they are next on.

If my manager sent this, all it will do is make me think about it over the weekend, irrespective of the "lowering of importance". I would rather keep my mind free over the weekend and see the message Monday morning.

Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#89

Post by kbenson »

noisy_boy wrote: post #87
kbenson wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, where there's a large power imbalance, you have to take that into consideration. I manage people, and if I message one in their off time and it's not an emergency or something I really need them to answer if they see, I'll be careful to state clearly that no reply is needed or we can follow up on Monday or whenever they are next on. Its the same reason I don't make jokes deprecating them to them within a group (…

> 'll be careful to state clearly that no reply is needed or we can follow up on Monday or whenever they are next on. If my manager sent this, all it will do is make me think about it over the weekend, irrespective of the "lowering of importance". I would rather keep my mind free over the weekend and see the message Monday morning.

I agree, and I try not to message people on their time off, but if I felt it was important for some reason (for example, maybe if I'm not going to be around on that day which is the only reason I can remember doing it), I'd make sure to clarify expectations, or lack thereof.

Re: Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)

#90

Post by totallywrong »

linguae wrote: post #3

As an American who spends a lot of time traveling to Japan and who had experience living there (and who has dreams of moving back there once I pay off my student loans), I’ve done this type of confession twice; it’s quite different from the ambiguity that often occurs with forming relationships in America where people don’t know exactly where they stand. While it doesn’t remove all ambiguity (does she like me? Why is…

Does that mean nothing ever happens until you've agreed to a serious relationship? I do not see that refreshing or better in any way than our dating style.
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