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DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

ecstaticintegration.org

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Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#61

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

threads2 wrote: post #58
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, tryptamines and indoles in general tend to have really nasty aroma. I think one of the reasons is that they're chemically similar to skatole, which is an indole chemical that's one of the main components of the odour of faeces. Skatole can also build up in the meat of pigs, especially male adult ones, which is why some pork meat doesn't taste right. This is probably true for other meats as well. I've certainly…

Thanks, didn't know this - but from my experience, DMT smoke smelled and tasted kind of plasticky (like when you burn plastic). Did I just interpret the poop-smell differently?

I think it's just like that because skatole is only one of many odours in excrement, but it's the one that makes in uncomfortable and makes you want to get away from it. So evolutionarily it's useful to just get away from skatole whenever encountered.

So it's not so much that it smells like poop, just is as revolting in some more general sense. And DMT probably has a lot of bitterness to it(can't remember what it tastes like, honestly, but I remember its cousins AMT and DPT being intensely bitter, though I didn't vape them).

Weirdly, skatole also smells nice in very small quantities, and is apparently used in perfume.

So yeah, odour is a pretty strange sense...

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#62

Post by refurb »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #35
helsinki wrote: post #21

Is it just me or does DMT have one or the worst tastes / smells that exist?

Yeah, tryptamines and indoles in general tend to have really nasty aroma. I think one of the reasons is that they're chemically similar to skatole, which is an indole chemical that's one of the main components of the odour of faeces. Skatole can also build up in the meat of pigs, especially male adult ones, which is why some pork meat doesn't taste right. This is probably true for other meats as well. I've certainly…

Interestingly, I've smelled pure skatole in the lab and it didn't smell bad at all, it smelled like mothballs (not surprisingly considering the structural similarity to naphthalene [moth balls]).

My theory is that in the synthesis of skatole, you end up with a lot of indole impurities that smell like feces even in small quantities. They can be hard to remove so people associate skatole with the smell. It's pretty common in chemistry, many chemicals have bad smells from minor impurities. Isopropyl alcohol is a good example, it has small quantities of acetone. Ethanol has small quantities of acetaldehyde. Really pure ethanol smells quite sweet.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#63

Post by InSteady »

raydiatian wrote: post #24

This genuinely seems like a psychedelics hit piece. This joombah mentions taking psychedelics with zero preparation: alone, on a whim, without concern for dosage. For real? I have no sympathy for him. Nobody is this naive, and if he is perhaps it’s Mother Nature doing her magic.

Shit take. Young people make mistakes. So do full grown adults. This person isn't asking for your sympathy in any case, merely raising awareness of risks that sometimes (often in some circles) get glossed over.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#64

Post by colecut »

slibhb wrote: post #53

60% of posts in every HN thread about psychedelics are whackos peddling fake knowledge. To me, the interesting question is whether this special mix of new-age spiritual bullshit and two-points-make-a-line, post-hoc reasoning is caused by psychedelic-use or if people who think this way are merely attracted to drugs. Or both. Further research should hone in on this important question.

I don't know, to me this has been the least insightful comment so far. I don't even know what you are complaining about.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#65

Post by agnos »

I've had similar experiences with psychedelics. It seems like once you lose touch with some sort of "self-image", it can be very hard to get back. Wish this was talked about more.

The first and most pronounced depersonalization experience I've had was with mushrooms. I had taken ~2g of dried mushrooms and was feeling pretty good, so I decided to take a walk in the park near my apartment. Gradually I started feeling like the boundary between my self and the outside world was getting fuzzier. My body felt like a machine that existed as part of a larger machine.

Then, suddenly, I thought: who is the driver of this machine? If I'm the machine, what is driving it? I felt like I was taking a walk in the park with a VR headset on. I wanted to take off the VR headset and experience "true" reality. I kept asking myself this question, shedding layers of self-identity, until I reached a state of absolute nothingness. Absolute, zero, blackness. It was probably only a brief second, but in that moment time didn't seem to exist. I didn't seem to exist.

The actual experience of the "absolute nothingness" wasn't bad per se, but integrating it back into daily life was a struggle. It felt like nothing made sense. I "remembered" who I was, but I couldn't seem to just immerse myself in that person again. The layers of my self-identity didn't feel real anymore. Nothing felt like it had a reason for existing. Everything was arbitrary.

For a while after that experience, daily life became a struggle. I didn't have the motivation to do anything. Talking to people was hard because I felt everyone was wearing a mask of sorts. It's also hard to understand this sort of DP/DR unless you've experienced it. Like the article, I remember discovering the terms "depersonalization" and "derealization" from desperate Google searches. It gave me a bit of relief to just be able to put labels on the experience. I read about "ego death", which also gave me some perspective.

I also started developing physical symptoms. The explanation is probably just stress/cortisol, but it seemed like the cells in my body also suffered from this lack of subjective identity. I developed chronic inflammation, an autoimmune condition, and had trouble sleeping.

Gradually, over a year or so, I got better, I think due to gradually forgetting about the experience. Still, I don't think I ever returned to the person I was before. It seems like there will always be a part of me that "refuses to drink the Kool-aid" -- that can't fully subscribe to my ego's self-identity anymore.

That being said, I don't regret the experience, as I think there was some sort of truth in it. But I do wish stories like this were talked about more. It's not about avoiding "bad trips", but finding a way to integrate it into your life.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#66

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

refurb wrote: post #62
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, tryptamines and indoles in general tend to have really nasty aroma. I think one of the reasons is that they're chemically similar to skatole, which is an indole chemical that's one of the main components of the odour of faeces. Skatole can also build up in the meat of pigs, especially male adult ones, which is why some pork meat doesn't taste right. This is probably true for other meats as well. I've certainly…

Interestingly, I've smelled pure skatole in the lab and it didn't smell bad at all, it smelled like mothballs (not surprisingly considering the structural similarity to naphthalene [moth balls]). My theory is that in the synthesis of skatole, you end up with a lot of indole impurities that smell like feces even in small quantities. They can be hard to remove so people associate skatole with the smell. It's pretty com…

Interesting. I wonder if this is one of those things with odour, where odours can be contextual. I believe there are studies where people are exposed to odour chemicals, and their experience was dependent on what they were told the odour was, even though chemically it was the same odour. The most famous example is probably parmesan vs foot odour, which shares some of the same odourants, and they've exhibited this context dependence too, I believe.

But I don't discount your hypothesis. Upon further googling, it appears indole itself(with no groups on it) is also a known strong component in the odour of faeces.

As for boar taint(finally found the English term for it) it seems this is both associated with skatole and androstenone. So now I'm wondering what the actual evidence is that skatole is supposed to smell/taste bad on its own.

Can't find any sources on this happening in non-pigs though. So I'm starting to think the mutton and duck I had were just contaminated, probably by being raised in unsanitary conditions.

A good rule of thumb to avoid meat with boar taint I've found is to avoid cheap, smoked meat. Smoking is supposed to mask the off taste, but to me it just tastes bad and smoked.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#67

Post by steveylang »

throwanem wrote: post #41
kibwen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even at the cost of complicating the message The problem is that complicated messages don't scale. If your cause can't be reduced to a buzzphrase, you cannot achieve wide-spread change. I'm not trying to be deliberately edgy or cynical, it just seems like a fatal flaw of mass communication and human psychology.

Then maybe mass activism is the wrong approach with such a powerful and dangerous tool as these substances.

I am 100% for decriminalization, but understand it's not a black and white issue. I don't disagree with your point, at the same time there's a part of me that thinks, "You can't outlaw stupid." I feel for the guy in the article, but whether psychedelics are legal or not this guy was just not getting the message (I don't mean metahphysically, I just mean realizing that yes psychedelics are a powerful thing):

> "So my first psychedelic experience was when I was 20 years old in in Amsterdam. I took mushrooms and I had a hell of a trip like because I wasn't aware of dosages and don't know what type of dosage I took."

And then a few years later we get to this-

> "I was planning to do an ayahuasca retreat in Peru, and a friend of mine said why not smoke DMT here. I didn't know that I was doing one of the strongest psychedelics on earth. I didn't have any preparation."

Like I said I really do feel for the guy and hopes he finds resolution, but what was he thinking? I also hope lots of people read his story.

I also think that 'net-zero trauma' poster/slide is pretty cringey. Like you said, it's not that simple.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#68

Post by asd88 »

jmfldn wrote: post #13

I'm not sure if I've had these exact experiences, but something related perhaps, albeit milder. When I was in my early twenties I consumed a lot of cannabis in the form of hash cakes one night and it triggered a panic attack. What was scary about the panic attack was this feeling of the world around me feeling dreamlike, or like I was in a dream I couldn't wake up from. It was like there's normally this safe ground w…

This is extremely similar to what happened to me. Antidepressants and CBT helped manage the anxiety and, 12 years later, I’m pretty much back to normal except for the ocasional manageable panic you describe and some baseline anxiety.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#69

Post by yowlingcat »

slibhb wrote: post #48
yowlingcat wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them should be done with an experienced mentor, in a controlled environment, and in a dosing ramp up tha…

> You could say that about any medication with side effects, so really that statement doesn't say much. No you couldn't -- it depends how well the medication is understood/how much research exists. > I think a better rephrasing would be that these substances are powerful, should be treated with respect, and have the potential for harm if misused. Furthermore, I think that it should be said that learning to use them s…

Look, people have been using these substances for millennia to the degree that it is an integrated spiritual practice across a number of civilizations.

I'm not sure why you want to ignore history to suit your narrative but it's telling that you're not engaging with it and it weakens your point. All you've illustrated is that /you/ don't know or care to find out about how the substance has been utilized. That has nothing to do with whether such an understanding exists or not and whether /others/ know something you don't. Suit yourself.

Re: DMT, Derealization, and Depersonalization

#70

Post by raydiatian »

InSteady wrote: post #63
raydiatian wrote: post #24

This genuinely seems like a psychedelics hit piece. This joombah mentions taking psychedelics with zero preparation: alone, on a whim, without concern for dosage. For real? I have no sympathy for him. Nobody is this naive, and if he is perhaps it’s Mother Nature doing her magic.

Shit take. Young people make mistakes. So do full grown adults. This person isn't asking for your sympathy in any case, merely raising awareness of risks that sometimes (often in some circles) get glossed over.

Ya but I mean the potential of psychedelics today is their use in controlled therapeutic settings, so it’s not a shit take. Every aspect I pointed out from this article runs directly counter to the goals of establishing psychedelic therapies: that those therapies be guided, prepared, and dosed by body weight.

> merely raising awareness

This is so dumb it hurts, have we not been living in a war on drugs since the 1960’s, whose awareness is being raised, “drugs are bad mmkay”

And that pulls back around to my point. We’ve been living in an anti-drug context for so long, both the emerging markets and the mental health benefits are not served by anecdotal accounts of idiots not looking before they leap.

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