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The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

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Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say yes, a society where people study what excites them is a desirable thing. Totally incompatibile with reality nowadays it seems but desirable nonetheless. In other words, I'd like to live in a world where people can follow their passion and don't have to worry about paying their medical bills. I think that makes for a more interesting society.

After thinking about this I think capitalism, which has been working pretty good for me might be the cause of my existential depression. I never considered until I read your comment and it resonated with me. All my decisions are based on efficiency and ROI. I have build up a decent net worth but my happiness has been trending down.

It's not your fault, blame those early homo sapiens and their agricultural revolution.

Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#22
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How is this view "fuck you I got mine". I took out loans, and I paid them. If this passed I would get money back. I don't think that is fair for people who paid off their loans before, or those who come after.

How is it unfair to those before or after? What harm does it cause them?

Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this proposal also have included tuition free education or would future generations still accumulate debt for overpriced education?

It's a complex problem. Personally I don't think we should be issuing loans for degrees which will not render a successful career path in which to pay back that loan. Similar to how when you apply for a mortgage or other loan, your income and other means of paying the loan back are verified and approved before the loan is granted. Maybe one of the Europeans can chime in, don't the Germans offer tuition free education…

I'm not aware of a STEM-only tuition-free education. Having grown up there my gut feeling is that that would be against their spirit.

AFAIR all public education is tuition free and only has administrative cost associated.

Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#24
I think this is just a terrible situation for everyone involved. When growing up it was hammered into us that you needed to go to university to be able to be successful in the world, and so a lot of people went into university not to get a specific degree or anything but to get that piece of paper. The price was hidden behind the easy availability of student loans and the fact that 18 year-olds don't have the career experience or even life experience to really put the total cost into perspective. Is $20,000/year good or bad if your salary is going to be $40,000? What if your salary is $100,000? In addition, the returns to education weren't very obvious, since data on graduate income has only recently been published, and because of the confound that in prior years, university graduation was heavily influenced by parental success, personal ambition, and intelligence, which meant that those people who were likely to go to university would also be the kind of people who would be at the top of the non-University class.

I'm not saying they'd be just as well off if they didn't go to University; what I'm saying is this: In 1960, not go to University, they'd likely have greater career outcomes than other people who didn't go to University because of characteristics that were not affected going to education such as parental success, personal ambition, intelligence, etc. This means that the supposed return to education is possibly less than how it appears because those characteristics are a confound that are entirely separate from the knowledge you learn at University.

Universities seem to have taken advantage of the "need" to attend by raising prices, competing for students with excessive luxuries (compared to universities in other countries), and by achieving near perfect price discrimination through the use of scholarships (which allow them to charge each customer's willingness to pay -- a very desirable achievement!) At the same time, we've seen the Administrative class become more bloated, and the power and influence of professors decrease. For instance:

"In 2003, when 5,307 undergraduate students studied on campus, the University employed 3,500 administrators and managers. In 2019, before the COVID-19 pandemic’s effects on student enrollment, only 600 more students were living and studying at Yale, yet the number of administrators had risen by more than 1,500 — a nearly 45 percent hike." [0]

It seems that the increase in non-educational spending has no signs of slowing down, and as long as Americans are willing to pay the high education costs, we shouldn't expect University budgets or spending to decrease. Which brings the question: what happens if we make education free? It's obviously not actually free, someone has to pay for it, and it would be the American taxpayer in some way. But how can we get Universities to pull back spending? How do we get them to focus on educational spending and increasing human capital rather than administrative headcount or the university of experience?

That's my issue with the situation. We shouldn't have this loan issue -- University shouldn't cost this much to begin, and paying the Universities to solve a problem (i.e. high cost) that they created seems like a terrible incentive.

[0] https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/11/10/reluctance-on-the-...

Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#27
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this view "fuck you I got mine". I took out loans, and I paid them. If this passed I would get money back. I don't think that is fair for people who paid off their loans before, or those who come after.

How is it unfair to those before or after? What harm does it cause them?

How is it unfair that everyone chips in and pays my mortgage off? What harm does it cause them?

Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#28

Student debt cancellation was a cheap scheme to buy votes from some of the nation's dumbest. Most of the people underwater on student debt were seeking useless degrees in the first place, with no practical plan to pay back the debt from day one. It's similar to expecting the government to pay off your credit card bill after buying that jet ski.

Actually medical students have the most loans, so unless you think that medical professionals are useless or that medicine should only be practiced by the rich, you should reconsider your views. In most countries around the world higher education is free (or almost free) if you have the grades to be admitted, it's very a natural process. The fact that you have to take enormous debts to be allowed to study (which is y…

> so unless you think that medical professionals are useless or that medicine should only be practiced by the rich, you should reconsider your views.

Doctors and medical professionals are among the highest paid in this country[1]. Paying off their student loans makes the least sense.

> The fact that you have to take enormous debts to be allowed to study (which is your only hope for social mobility)

This is so absurdly false. It's a false narrative that's been pushed by higher-learning institutions for decades, and now regular people believe it. You do not need a piece of paper to earn a tremendous amount in this country. So very many blue-collar jobs earn six figures annually.

What's required to have social and economic mobility is a work ethic and skill. It's that simple.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/highest-paying.htm

Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#29
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually medical students have the most loans, so unless you think that medical professionals are useless or that medicine should only be practiced by the rich, you should reconsider your views. In most countries around the world higher education is free (or almost free) if you have the grades to be admitted, it's very a natural process. The fact that you have to take enormous debts to be allowed to study (which is y…

> so unless you think that medical professionals are useless or that medicine should only be practiced by the rich, you should reconsider your views. Doctors and medical professionals are among the highest paid in this country[1]. Paying off their student loans makes the least sense. > The fact that you have to take enormous debts to be allowed to study (which is your only hope for social mobility) This is so absurdl…

Cite your sources about all those six figure blue collar jobs.

Re: The Supreme Court rejects Biden’s plan to wipe away $400B in student loans

#30

This was a rather bizarre decision for the way Justices sidestepped the crucial issue of "Standing". There were 6 states that brought the case, and none of them would have suffered any harm from the loan forgiveness.

From https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/06/supreme-court-strikes-dow... :

>> On Friday the justices upheld that ruling, finding that Missouri has standing to challenge the debt-relief program because the financial harms to MOHELA from the program will also harm Missouri. Missouri created MOHELA to help state residents obtain student loans to pay for college, Roberts reasoned. It is operated by “state officials and state appointees, reports to the State, and may be dissolved by the State.” If the debt-relief program goes into effect, he observed, MOHELA’s revenues will fall, “impairing its efforts to aid Missouri college students” – which in turn “is necessarily a direct injury to Missouri itself.”

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