Live data from Hacker News

Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

nature.com

191–200 of 221 posts

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#191
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acoustic waves propagate through what are essentially elastic deformations of the material they travel through. Can gravitational waves be thought of as propagating by elastically deforming spacetime? If this analogy holds, then can it be taken further? Acoustic waves dissipate their energy insofar as they trigger plastic deformation in a material. Could gravitational waves plastically deform... spacetime itself? Or…

In principle yes, gravitational waves dissipate energy into ordinary matter they pass through. However the coupling is extremely weak (that gravitational waves are so hard to detect is testament to this). In fact this weak coupling is what makes GWs so interesting for observational astronomy: They propagate from the source to our detectors virtually unchanged. (This is in contrast to EM radiation, which is very easy…

I would rate the weak coupling as a far second or third point of interest behind linear signal fall-off vs inverse square for most other kinds of signal such as electromagnetic waves.

Gamma ray burst is twice as far away? It's four times dimmer. A thousand times as far? A million times more dim. Gravitational wave signal from is twice as far away? Makes it twice as hard to detect. A thousand times as far away? Only a thousand times as hard to detect.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering if these waves could affect our brains, even subtly. Maybe cause a reaction in one part of one cell that tips the balance between a neuron firing or not.

The amplitude of the waves we have detected are less than the width of a proton.

Wavelength, right?

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are not caused by the galactic filaments. We don't know exactly yet what all is causing gravitational wave background (GWB), but a theory is that it could be caused by supermassive black holes, or primordial black holes from the early universe, etc.

I asked the reverse. If the filaments are caused by gravitational waves.

No to that as well. The galactic filaments are just aggregations of gravitationally-massive objects in space.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to pay for it. We have other forms of energy that are cheaper and available right now.

Unfortunately this is the correct answer, almost word for word how I was going to phrase it. Do long as other forms of energy are inexpensive, we will continue to abuse them no matter the damage.

Nuclear and renewable energy are two options that are (probably) cheaper than fusion.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so how comes they can't get this fusion thing to work?

> how comes they can't get this fusion thing to work? Fusion energy involves conjuring physics which don’t exist in that form in the known universe. (Stellar fusion happens at lower rates than what we’re targeting. The only reason it works is because stars are so huge.)

I think a useful fact to contextualize how much more intense we're hoping to make fusion, is that the volumetric power density (watts per cubic meter) of sol's core (276 watts/m^3) is on the scale of a well run compost pile (50~200)[0]. Since we don't want to make an object as big as the sun's core, we need to make something far, far, far more intense than the sun's core, which is understandably quite hard.

[0]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266701002...

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#196

Modern physics(and engineering) is kind of absurd. And I mean that in a good way. LIGO? I didn't believe at all that it would ever work. Even when they got detections I kinda thought they were chasing their own tails. Now the evidence is pretty much rock solid that the data is real(multiple facilities, correlations with light observations for neutron star mergers, etc). Then I heard about LISA, which essentially is b…

This discovery didn't actually involve LIGO, nor any other feats of impressive physical engineering. It was made by observing neutron stars and finding patterns in their unexpected perturbations.

Neutron star rotation is so consistent that they are used to calibrate atomic clocks[0]. However some of them were glitching and not rotating as expected, but the glitches were consistent between each other. It turns out they aren't actually glitching, but spacetime is being distorted by massive gravitational waves.

[0] https://gizmodo.com/scientists-use-spinning-neutron-stars-to...

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#197
post #31

What do these waves look like as they pass through us? Acoustic-like compression and expansion of particles as molecules temporarily reorient toward a “down” that is ever-so-slightly off from the Center of mass of the Earth? Also, I assume that these waves are very gentle sinusoids? Could the opposite — a high-amplitude gravitational square wave — be possible? What would it do to the things it passes through?

Yes, that's basically right. The gravitational way has a direction (say, z) in which its propagating. Within the plane perpendicular to that direction (x-y), a circular ring of particles will at at one moment experience squeezing in one direction (x) and stretching the perpendicular direction (y). As the wave passes through and you move from the peak of the wave to the trough, the directions reverse, so the first dir…

"However, spacetime is incredibly stiff, and I think all the known real-world sources produce pretty smooth waves."

In English, why does stiffness correlate to smooth waves? What does stiff spacetime mean? I'd have thought a square wave would be "stiff" as it's quite the opposite of smooth.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#198

Modern physics(and engineering) is kind of absurd. And I mean that in a good way. LIGO? I didn't believe at all that it would ever work. Even when they got detections I kinda thought they were chasing their own tails. Now the evidence is pretty much rock solid that the data is real(multiple facilities, correlations with light observations for neutron star mergers, etc). Then I heard about LISA, which essentially is b…

This discovery didn't actually involve LIGO, nor any other feats of impressive physical engineering. It was made by observing neutron stars and finding patterns in their unexpected perturbations. Neutron star rotation is so consistent that they are used to calibrate atomic clocks[0]. However some of them were glitching and not rotating as expected, but the glitches were consistent between each other. It turns out the…

Indeed, and part of the magic is knowing jupiters position with a very high precision. Said precision was delivered by the Juno probe in 2016 or so. With that precision we now know the earth position with much more accuracy. The trick is the jupiter and sun orbit around a point outside the surface of the sun. Said point (barycenter) is the point the earth rotates around.

The increased positional accuracy of the earth allows teasing out the distortion from to various pulsars to use the galaxy as a ligo like gravity wave detector.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the faster you go, the slower your proper time appears to an external observer From my perspective, it takes about 8 minutes for a photon from the sun to hit my eye. From the perspective of the photon, a little time has passed, no? Doesn't the atmosphere and passing through my glasses slow it down a wee bit? Can the photon "know" that its position has changed between emission and absorption? From the photons point…

No. From the photons perspective, there is no concept of time. Phase speed, group speed, shadows going faster than the speed of light, etc.. will all complicate using the concepts used to teach diffraction Massless particles being required to travel at the speed of light is perhaps a lens to think about it.

There is a lot of confusion in this thread. One is the topic of photons vs proper time. tl;dr use affine time for things that move at c, and proper time for things that move at less than c, and remember that nobody's coordinate time is in any sense the time in relativity.

Some quotes from this thread:

> photons [have] no concept of time

and earlier

> Nothing that travels at light speed experiences time. For a photon, emission and absorption is a single event.

and other commenters in the same thread

> Photons ... "subjective" time is zero. In Einstein's theory of special relativity, the faster you go the slower your proper time appears to an external observer

> time within the photon's own reference frame is not advancing at all

and even Don Lincoln in a linked video in this thread: "we have to be careful since the equations of relativity don't apply for travelling at the speed of light, but hopefully you see that this limit trick allows us to get arbitrarily close. So I think we can see that a photon experiences no time ..." Thus everyone above is in good company with these slogans. However, Don Lincoln almost certainly knows he needs to correct s/the/these/ (in the context of the lim v->c analysis in the video), and that his conclusion needs to be understood as "no proper time" in that context. But we also all know that it's a youtube pop sci outreach video, not a university lecture or crucial vital factual no-fake-news hackernews thread.

So, let me make the counter-propostion: photons evolve on their worldlines, so must experience some time.

Additionally, elastic Rayleigh scattering supports the idea that there may be one or more point-coincidences along the worldline of a photon. There can also be non-scattering point-coincidences where the photon's momentum energy is some fraction less than 1/1 of the energy-density (the stress-energy) at some point in spacetime along its worldline even if the photon does not interact non-gravitationally with the rest of the stress-energy there (e.g. at that point there could be one or more of a neutrino, free neutron, dark matter particle, or another photon). We should be able to describe such a point-concidence in coordinates adapted to our photon's worldline, just as we could adapt them to e.g. the free neutron's worldline.

Relativity gives us (for all practical purposes, fapp) total coordinate freedom. Point-coincidence physics are invariant under changes of coordinates.

So we can label any curve any way we like, without changing the physics of anything touching that curve.

Proper time \tau solves the timelike geodesic equation, which makes \tau handy for labelling points along a timelike geodesic, but \Delta\tau = 0 on null geodesics, so is not suitable for them.

There is a unique labelling of points along a null geodesic that does solve the geodesic equation, and that is the affine parameter. See https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/17509/what-is-th... to save me a bunch of typing. Note that as the third answer says one can use the affine parameter to calculate and explain the gravitational or cosmological redshift as a consequence of the null geodesics picked out by the Einstein Field Equations.

That (and the equivalence principle) is also a satisfying way of understanding the relation E = hf (see the first equation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_energy#Formulas>) in a lab-scale patch of flat spacetime.

Otherwise, how do you explain any \Delta f if photons "have no concept of time"? You and others in this thread appear to have been arguing that in Special Relativity the standard inertial frame for massive particles is inappropriate for showing the time-evolution of massless particles. That's true. But the point of relativity is that we can deploy (fapp) any system of coordinates and if we are doing covariant physics (i.e. using tensors; one might start with chapter 11 of J.D. Jackson's textbook which is freely available online (and 2nd ed is on the Internet Archive) and is very widely used in teaching) then it almost doesn't matter what system of coordinates we use.

Almost: we can choose practically useless coordinates, like labelling a curve in a non-monotonic way, or labelling points non-uniquely. In fact, any f(\tau) does both of those on a null geodesic: every point gets labelled with a 0. That's not the photon's fault, that's the fault of trying to use an inappropriate system of coordinates. To be fair, such coordinates seem like obvious choices by a person familiar with their use in inertial frames for massive objects, but who then may be misled into thinking the inappropriateness of the coordinates for objects on null geodesics determines the physics of those objects.

Unfortunately, this mistake is very common, and has led to poor slogans which have been repeated many times by several people in this discussion.

If one wants to sloganize, "proper time is inappropriate for photons because they are massless" (cf. §1.2 on the inverse square law and photon mass in Jackson) "but just as nobody's proper time is preferred in relativity, neither is any proper time; and for photons affine time is a useful substitute".

> Massless particles being required to travel at the speed of light is perhaps a lens to think about it.

Indeed, and I just did that for you, although Jackson and I would flip that around to say that c is the speed of massless particles and experimentally (and for theoretical reasons) photons are massless.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#200
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does "photos don't experience time themselves.." mean? why not?

Try this from Fermilab's Dr Don Lincoln: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zspu7ziA8Y

I did, and enjoyed it as a good pop-sci outreach video, and do not fault it given that's what it is. The lim v->c analysis is standard and well-presented, but his conclusion about photons' time is liable to confuse people (including other physicists who aren't relativists). I refer you to my comment elsewhere in this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36537015> which has a paragraph about this video (your link having partially motivated my comment), and which explains that it is common for relativists to use affine time for massless particles.
Post reply on HN