Live data from Hacker News

Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

ctvnews.ca

421–430 of 503 posts

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define ‘power’. The unique aspect of government controls is that we grant the government a monopoly on force (imprisonment, seizure of property, etc). That is not the case with private actors and that is a significant and consequential difference in ‘power’.

What do you think a monopoly is? It is almost absolute power especially in industries where barrier to entry is super high.

Monopolies can only exist with government support via protection from competition. Expansive government power makes monopolies more likely and more stable than minimal government power.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#422
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would include HN

No, it only applies to specifically regulated "digital news intermediaries" who are selected for regulation according to the criteria: Application 6 This Act applies in respect of a digital news intermediary if, having regard to the following factors, there is a significant bargaining power imbalance between its operator and news businesses: (a) the size of the intermediary or the operator; (b) whether the market for…

so then it depends on if HN ever embarasses the CRTC or the government. Better toe the line else be designated

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#423
post #64
post #36

Many people who would otherwise be appalled at laws like this seem to want to rationalize this because its specifically targeting Google and Meta. Sometimes taking the simple view is correct: It's a bad thing to prevent sites from linking to one another. It's a bad thing to interfere with the ability to access information on the Internet for reasons of nationalist politics.

> Many people who would otherwise be appalled at laws like this seem to want to rationalize this because its specifically targeting Google and Meta. It's not just a matter of the targeted companies being Google and Meta, even though these two especially deserve it. It's the simple realization that good journalism requires good money, and that the current balance between news organizations and internet brokers isn't u…

> While Canada's bill may not be well-tuned, it is a welcome first attempt.

First attempt for Canada maybe. Australia did it a few years ago:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56163550
The first draft of that law was initially written by the news companies themselves, and was a hilarious exercise in overreach. (For example, the first draft insisted news companies be allowed to edit joe citizens posts to the media companies Facebook page.) The version put before parliament was watered down and vague enough that after Facebook stopped posting Australian news, a compromise was reached that oddly didn't require a change to the legislation (and the media companies got far less).

But Australia wasn't the first either. The Australian media companies got their idea from the French(?):

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/google-agrees-to-pay-french-publishers-for-news.html
I agree with some other posters here. It's not welcome. It's a shakedown from dinosaurs grasping for straws, and to accommodate them the pollies stretched the definition of copyright even further.

It was obvious it wouldn't work, and clearly hasn't worked in Australia. The newspapers are still posting large losses, still shutting down newsrooms. It's inevitable they will disappear in their current form. The newspapers business wasn't selling news or doing investigations to create news. Their business is the same as Google's: selling ads. The news was always just the bait they used to get people to read their ads and they shamelessly copied it, often with only a few words changed, between mastheads. Each had their own little area they sold to, the size largely determined by how far you ship dead trees in about 6 hours. Now the BBC, CNN, The Guardian and the other remaining big ones can reach the entire world now, so we don't need thousands of little mastheads all repeating the same news items. These big news rooms do a far better job that the little ones at gathering news, and selling ads. And so, the little mastheads will die.

It's bad law because in order to cover this use case, they banned creating 10 or 20 word summaries of a 200 or 300 word article, expanding copyright accordingly. That had to do that because at least in Google's case, as all Google every did was post a few words and a link to the actual content, on the newspapers site. Copyright terms have already been stretched well beyond their utilitarian justification, probably by an order of magnitude. This stretches the definition of what is covered by copyright by a similar amount. Admittedly this stretch is fairly harmless here, but if it leaks into other domains we will have a mess on our hands.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#424
post #64
post #36

Many people who would otherwise be appalled at laws like this seem to want to rationalize this because its specifically targeting Google and Meta. Sometimes taking the simple view is correct: It's a bad thing to prevent sites from linking to one another. It's a bad thing to interfere with the ability to access information on the Internet for reasons of nationalist politics.

> Many people who would otherwise be appalled at laws like this seem to want to rationalize this because its specifically targeting Google and Meta. It's not just a matter of the targeted companies being Google and Meta, even though these two especially deserve it. It's the simple realization that good journalism requires good money, and that the current balance between news organizations and internet brokers isn't u…

> It's the simple realization that good journalism requires good money, and that the current balance between news organizations and internet brokers isn't up to the task. It is also true of other type of content creators, by the way: there is a structural imbalance between content creators and content brokers. This is even more true with Google's zero-click efforts.

then why were most news publications as bad as they are now 20 years ago? maybe they just suck. I learn more from HN that some news site ever did.

When I read american aerticles about my country, they are just plain WRONG.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no imbalance here: newspapers produce content, search engines/social networks surface and link to it. What's happening here is that publishers and their owners somehow figured these pesky internet wiz kids owe them more money.

[flagged]

Care to provide verifiable details and a timeline for "look like North Korea and China"?

Because otherwise this smells like sensationalism to me. Hate is already defined in Canadian law wrt hate crimes, btw, and that predates the Trudeau-monster by decades.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#426
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4: Links bring in readers who then decide to support the journalism. I personally believe reader support is the only viable option going forward.

I whole heartedly agree - I think subcription is an immense boon to services like these... that being said, if Google parses most of your article into their news tab and then only serves up an amp'ified version of your site it can be quite difficult to actually present users with an option to subscribe. I'm a Canadian and I don't like C-18, but I also think that search/aggregation companies have far too loose a leash…

Well, first of all, Amp is opt-in. And second, indexing is opt-out. So the publishers are already in full control of how Google uses their content.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#427
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how we can call this nationalistic politics. I'm sure if a (hypothetical) Canadian big-tech impacted news organizations similarly, they would also have been a target of this law. Many of the biggest tech have origins in US and any country trying to make a law regulating businesses and technology within its borders is bound to impact American companies one way or the other. We can take the easy route and c…

I appreciate most of your argument and I also agree that we can't just use nationalism to dismiss laws like this BUT "We may not agree with their laws but it is their right" This statement can be used to justify any law. We are also not debating whether it's their right but if it's a good law.

I'm not justifying any law here. Saying a law is bad because it is passed in nationalistic fervor is a weak argument. It is a government's right and responsibility to make laws of their land and whether a law is passed because the current government is nationalist or not is speculative and irrelevant.

A good law can be passed with ill intentions and a bad law can be passed with good intentions. We should judge a law based on its merits and consequences but not based on who or why it was introduced. In this case, we can discuss on outcomes of this law and how it is bad for the internet but speculating on the intentions is just a lazy argument.

Lately, the go to terms against any law impacting big tech have been 'nationalism', 'authoritarianism' and 'crash-grab' etc. Many times the laws on anti-trust or data-residency laws enacted by other countries have been termed as 'threat to democracy', authoritarian and as impacting basic structure of the internet etc.

Any country trying to regulate, promote its own tech or maintain sovereignty over its citizen's data is strong armed into abandoning them by utilizing various trade organizations, lobbying and diplomatic pressure. At the same time, there is lot of official and unofficial complaining and investigation about TikTok storing data of 'American citizens' in China.

To me this looks entirely hypocritical and any discussion that accuses 'nationalism' comes off as a bad faith argument.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#428
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no imbalance here: newspapers produce content, search engines/social networks surface and link to it. The imbalance is that as platforms , newspapers cross-subsidize content. Interesting headlines attract readers to the newspaper, but once in hand readers are likely to continue reading the other, less unique articles. (See also why newspapers carry sports scores and comics). An investigative report is by it…

Personally I'd be happy to see the ad driven model die. It used to be that people bought newspapers or didn't read them. They still had some ads, granted, but far less intrusive than today's web ads with their colours and animations. I'm huge into supporting good journalism, and think we need some sort of intervention here. But I'm very very strongly opposed to this new law. If news sites want to charge for their con…

Because what you paid is far less ( think 10x) than what it takes to run.

Traditional paper-based newspaper is ad-supported too.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#429
post #36

Many people who would otherwise be appalled at laws like this seem to want to rationalize this because its specifically targeting Google and Meta. Sometimes taking the simple view is correct: It's a bad thing to prevent sites from linking to one another. It's a bad thing to interfere with the ability to access information on the Internet for reasons of nationalist politics.

We have seen that in other markets this type of law has hurt not helped publishers. This is Canada but it can easily be any country. We need a fix, big tech has monopolized ad revenue and is choking out the publishers. The quality of newspaper stories has deteriorated over the years and local news has suffered to the point of almost being nonexistent. Also, we now have very few companies that dominate the news. Look…

These News orgs haven’t adapted. They’re sitting around publishing long winded, biased stories on their shitty Wordpress implementation with sketchy ads wondering why they’re failing.

I’d happily pay good money for high quality news / journalism presented appropriately for the medium. That means a lot of concise real time information, coupled with long form discussion and debate. All packaged up in a modern, high quality web app, with auxiliary mobile applications.

Re: Bill C-18: Google to remove news links in Canada over online news law

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a structural imbalance between content creators and content brokers As seen in Twitch.tv vs Kick.com where streamers are dropping Twitch and migrating en-masse to Kick. Abusing the content creators can backfire. However Google is in a different situation; they have a virtual monopoly on content discovery and not existing on Google basically means not existing at all. How do you fix that? Is Google an inter…

It's not a utility. Search might be, and the state is welcome to start its own search engine and run it as a utility, paying zero innovation wages as utilities do.

Google the search engine is critical internet infrastructure, and innovation into it is stagnant from a user's perspective.
Post reply on HN