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Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

nature.com

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Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#81
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space itself means the metric of spacetime: how you measure distances. Locally, if there was no gravity, you could think of space as a plain reticule where distances would be calculated through eucledian geometry: that means cartesian distances, parallel lines would be parallel and the angles of a triangle would sum 180, and the shortest path between two points is the straight line. General Relativity successfully es…

If this is ELI5, we hang around very different kinds of five year olds :-) Joking aside, thank you for the deeper explanation. The idea that spacetime isn’t fundamental is a very non-intuitive concept given how we’ve evolved to interact with the world. Any suggested reading on this topic for laypeople?

ChatGPT to the rescue!

let's think about space like a giant, invisible playground. Normally, it's flat like your bedroom floor, where you can measure how far your toys are from each other with a ruler straight across. That's like when there's no gravity in space.

But guess what happens when something really heavy, like a big bowling ball (that's like a star or planet) comes into your playground? It makes everything around it bend and curve. So, the distance between your toys is no longer a straight line. It's like when you throw a ball, it doesn't go straight, it goes in a curve.

This bending is what a really smart guy named Einstein explained in a thing called General Relativity. He came up with a way to measure how space bends around heavy stuff.

And you know what else? There's this really weird stuff called Dark Energy that's everywhere but we can't see it. It makes space grow bigger and bigger, not because of heavy stuff, but because there's a lot of empty room. Scientists are still trying to understand this, but it's like blowing up a balloon: even though there's no heavy stuff inside, the balloon still gets bigger!

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#82

I'm curious what the amplitude of these waves are: what's the (order of magnitude) change in the distance to a 1000 light year distant pulsar, as the gravitational wave passes through? Edit: Being told by @Dr_CMingarelli on twitter that it's 10 meters pr lightyear.

You mean in like meters?

> Each observatory has two light storage arms that are 4 kilometers in length. [...] A passing gravitational wave will slightly stretch one arm as it shortens the other. [...] Even with such long arms, the strongest gravitational waves will only change the distance between the ends of the arms by at most roughly 10⁻¹⁸ m.

With the nominal hair value being 75 µm, `apt install qalc` tells me that's

   > 75 µm / 10^-18 m
   (75 * micrometer) / ((10^-18) * meter) = 7.5E13
so a change in length 7'500'000'000'000 times smaller than the width of a hair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair%27s_breadth

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#83
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's basically right. The gravitational way has a direction (say, z) in which its propagating. Within the plane perpendicular to that direction (x-y), a circular ring of particles will at at one moment experience squeezing in one direction (x) and stretching the perpendicular direction (y). As the wave passes through and you move from the peak of the wave to the trough, the directions reverse, so the first dir…

Acoustic waves propagate through what are essentially elastic deformations of the material they travel through. Can gravitational waves be thought of as propagating by elastically deforming spacetime? If this analogy holds, then can it be taken further? Acoustic waves dissipate their energy insofar as they trigger plastic deformation in a material. Could gravitational waves plastically deform... spacetime itself? Or…

> Or is gravitational energy not dissipated into other forms of energy at all?

Extremely weakly. The mechanism is similar to acoustic waves, but the coupling constant is so small, that the amount of dissipated power would be insignificantly small.

In theory, you can use gravitational waves to extract energy. For example, you can wait for the "compression" part of the wave, and push a cart uphill during it. Then let it slide downhill when the compression peak passes. You'll be able to extract some useful energy, because the distance that you pushed the car uphill will be shorter than the "normal" distance.

You can make more elaborate systems on this principle. E.g. a tuned resonator: two orbiting masses with a period selected to match the frequency of the gravitational waves.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#84

These ‘monster’ gravitational waves have supposedly been ‘spotted’ by calculating disparities in pulsar timings. The article didn’t have as much information as I was hoping - were any of these waves detected/confirmed by LIGO?

As others pointed out, LIGO is too small compared to the wavelength of the GW, but even if LIGO was extremely long, the technical noises (seismic, control system noises, gravity gradient noise, etc.) at such low frequencies are extremely high for ground-based detectors

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super helps! thanks - while I knew a bunch of pieces and tidbits, you cemented it for me - thank you. - TensorFlow >*General Relativity successfully establishes that the presence of mass distorts this, so it defines a mathematical object (the Einstein tensor) that reacts to the distribution of mass and energy and precisely describes the changes to the metric.* This leads me to think that TensorFlow was attempting to…

A tensor is a mathematical object that has a lot of uses beyond general relativity, of course. It's a little tricky to visualize (I think there are good YouTube videos) but tensors can be thought of as multidimensional arrays, and also the whole tensor algebra can be done in terms of multidimensional array operations. So reasoning about a neural network weights and operations in terms of tensors makes sense and I gue…

Yes, but your explaination helped me to better understand the other types of tensors in a way I can 'grok' it - as opposed to trying to be at the level of some google quant or whatever with ML understandings of weights.

It helped my put my own internal visualizations to the understanding.

and I had a weird peripheral memory on this from a thought I had whilst driving in 1999 where I was thinking of tensors in this way, but I didnt know what I was just daydreaming about... but apparently, it was einsteins tensors coupled with information theory - and while to me it was a pedestrians take on the premise - it turns out that that day dream was correct!

And it all ties back to when I was ten years old and meditating on the Mind of God -- It all tied into one another - and you gave me some cord to pull these experiences together with understanding which I havent had in 40 years... so that was nice. Thanks.

Anyone else recall daydreams from their past where their later understanding was confurmed, even though you were just "daydreaming at the time"?

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>*Gravitational waves cause space itself to stretch* Please ELI5 specifically and empiracally what "Space Itself" actually is. Would it be possible to build a 'galactic clock & Compass' - a "clock" to the regular pulses of a pulsar and the galactic direction the pulsar is in relation to the terrestrial compass (magnetic) on earth...? What is the pulsar with the most reliable timings?

Space itself means the metric of spacetime: how you measure distances. Locally, if there was no gravity, you could think of space as a plain reticule where distances would be calculated through eucledian geometry: that means cartesian distances, parallel lines would be parallel and the angles of a triangle would sum 180, and the shortest path between two points is the straight line. General Relativity successfully es…

Out of curiosity, from someone who has never worked with non-euclidean geometry, what does it mean for a path to be curved in non-Euclidean space? My outsider understanding of curvature is that the inside of a curve is shorter than the outside of the curve, whereas a line has the same length on either side (assuming we give these curves and lines some thickness). But, if the shortest path can be curved, what do we mean by curved?

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#87
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space itself means the metric of spacetime: how you measure distances. Locally, if there was no gravity, you could think of space as a plain reticule where distances would be calculated through eucledian geometry: that means cartesian distances, parallel lines would be parallel and the angles of a triangle would sum 180, and the shortest path between two points is the straight line. General Relativity successfully es…

If this is ELI5, we hang around very different kinds of five year olds :-) Joking aside, thank you for the deeper explanation. The idea that spacetime isn’t fundamental is a very non-intuitive concept given how we’ve evolved to interact with the world. Any suggested reading on this topic for laypeople?

> Any suggested reading on this topic for laypeople?

Carlo Rovelli is a bona fide theoretical physicist, very involved in the development of Quantum Loop Gravity (one of the attempted approaches to bridge GR and QM). Turns out he is also a good pop-sci writer, so I would begin there. His book "The Order of Time" deals with the nature of time, which is not about the nature of space, but then again reading it you see that the mental gimnastics are similar.

I also found useful contributions from regular contributors at /r/cosmology (thank you /u/jazzwhizz) but it's less straightforward and alas, Reddit has its own issues.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#88

I'm curious what the amplitude of these waves are: what's the (order of magnitude) change in the distance to a 1000 light year distant pulsar, as the gravitational wave passes through? Edit: Being told by @Dr_CMingarelli on twitter that it's 10 meters pr lightyear.

Per the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave

> Gravitational waves are not easily detectable. When they reach the Earth, they have a small amplitude with strain approximately 10^−21

"strain" being the unit-less measurement they use for gravitational wave.

The ones we measured just now, if I'm reading this article right (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/2041-8213/acdac6), are being reported as 2.4x10^-15.

I can say that's a lot larger, but I can't tell you much else about what that means.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#89
post #83
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acoustic waves propagate through what are essentially elastic deformations of the material they travel through. Can gravitational waves be thought of as propagating by elastically deforming spacetime? If this analogy holds, then can it be taken further? Acoustic waves dissipate their energy insofar as they trigger plastic deformation in a material. Could gravitational waves plastically deform... spacetime itself? Or…

> Or is gravitational energy not dissipated into other forms of energy at all? Extremely weakly. The mechanism is similar to acoustic waves, but the coupling constant is so small, that the amount of dissipated power would be insignificantly small. In theory, you can use gravitational waves to extract energy. For example, you can wait for the "compression" part of the wave, and push a cart uphill during it. Then let i…

The earth going around the sun produces gravitational waves, and some of the energy is lost.

If all of that energy could be harnessed; it would be sufficient to power a small toaster oven.

Re: Monster gravitational waves spotted for first time

#90
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's basically right. The gravitational way has a direction (say, z) in which its propagating. Within the plane perpendicular to that direction (x-y), a circular ring of particles will at at one moment experience squeezing in one direction (x) and stretching the perpendicular direction (y). As the wave passes through and you move from the peak of the wave to the trough, the directions reverse, so the first dir…

Acoustic waves propagate through what are essentially elastic deformations of the material they travel through. Can gravitational waves be thought of as propagating by elastically deforming spacetime? If this analogy holds, then can it be taken further? Acoustic waves dissipate their energy insofar as they trigger plastic deformation in a material. Could gravitational waves plastically deform... spacetime itself? Or…

Hard or impossible to visualize, but as the temporal dimension is so much larger, most of the deformity is in the time dimension.

But yes, spacetime itself is jiggly like Jell-O.

As we can't visualize 4d spacetime, most analogies will be wrong. But as photons don't experience time themselves, thinking about the geodesic path is probably less error prone than thinking of it as squishing physical objects.

Objects being pulled towards slower flows is the intuition that matches the math best for me.

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