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Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

latimes.com

391–400 of 1001 posts

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#392
This comment section is a frightening wake-up call to how peoples' mindsets are nowadays. I choose to believe that it's over-represented on HN because most people that exercise interest in the topics HN is made for, are the stereotypical liberal types.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#393
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth bearing in mind that if affirmative action helped his father become a doctor, it also prevented someone else's father from becoming a doctor. I wonder what that person could have achieved.

As someone not from the US, this whole Affirmative Actions seems to just be reversed racism. I.e. in the end more-or-less still unfair. Better to just remove race all together, and e.g. require college admissions by law to be judged without knowing the applicants name or ethnicity. To me as an outsider, the US focuses wayyyyy to much on race. Race really does not matter, and no matter how much the US claims to be rac…

> Better to just remove race all together, and e.g. require college admissions by law to be judged without knowing the applicants name or ethnicity.

Believe me, this has been considered and tried in various contexts. The problem is that in the end schools and companies find out that they don't achieve the "right" mix of ethnicities and genders and so it's back to square one.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shouldn't this just be run-of-the-mill social democratic "lets hand out some extra opportunities/benefits to the poor" program? In a lot of ways, affirmative action is a boogeyman that doesn't exist in the way many people think. In many large states, such as california, they already for a long time do not consider race as a factor in admissions, as per law. And, IMO, california has done a pretty good job of having…

> In a lot of ways, affirmative action is a boogeyman that doesn't exist in the way many people think. In that case, can you explain why two schools would've fought for the explicit use of race in deciding school admissions all the way to the Supreme Court?

California has been trying to overturn it's race-blind policy for some time. The original policy was instituted about the same time as everyone else's. The intent of overturning it, of course, is to then go further and institute a policy more like the one seen in this case.

It has been overturned at the referendum level every time.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#395
post #222

The concept of affirmative action is foreign to me (quite literally so). I only know it from American media, and I've come understand it to mean "positively discriminate based on race, so long as it's a minority race" - please correct me of I'm wrong. But anyway, my question for the Americans here who grok this stuff: I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people…

> I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people have already. Right? I mean, I can get behind that. But then why the entire detour with race? Up until about 1971 (possibly later, but that's the date of Loving vs Virginia ), the US had formal, legal discrimination against black people. On finally removing that, there was at various times discussion of whether peopl…

To me - very simply put - merit doesn’t make much sense when one set of people didn’t get any of the opportunities the other set did. It’s like comparing height with one person standing atop a stool. The nuance here is to find the lost potential in marks and tests due to a lack of opportunity. Race is a crude proxy and it really doesn’t have to be based on just race. But it’d mean admins spend more time interviewing and verifying people’s background and make subjective decisions based on that.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not just.. well, let poor people come first? Mostly it was a justice thing. The US spent decades disadvantaging people based on race and this was a step to try and reverse some of that. I agree that changing it from race to economic class is probably the right move at this point. That being said, I don't like that the SC is legislating from the bench. They are striking this down for purely political reasons.

> They are striking this down for purely political reasons. On its face affirmative action is pretty blatantly a violation of the 14th amendment: Which to a trivial reading would come out as 'All persons [black, white, rainbow] shall have equal rights to attend [state funded school], and as such a right to a fair and impartial admissions process'. Affirmative action adds the clause: "except those whose skin color we…

I don't think it's accurate to say that affirmative action programs are driven by racial animus. What's your evidence for saying so?

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#397

I often wished universities (and other organizations) would use a scoresheet-like "matrix of oppression" to determine someone's background difficulties. Like okay, you get X points if you're this race, Y points for that. Z points if your parents were poor. Or if you grew up in these bad zip codes. Or if your dad was gone and mom was an addict. Whatever. As an Asian American of relatively privileged (middle class) upb…

The who is more privileged game is not a fun one to play. Watched a white male friend and a white passing Hispanic female friend get into this argument before. He grew up poor in a rural area, only one parent worked a low paying job and the other was the care giver. She grew up middle class in a city, parents were college professors. There are a ton of other factors but even at those basics it got complicated. Is a m…

Even if it did happen, it would immediately become useless. What's the old adage? Once a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric.

Such a matrix would only become a goal for those wanting to get their kids into schools. I have no doubt at all, you'd get a cottage industry of counselors that would plan out how to best maximize your kids' privileged scores to get in.

Sell your house to a relative at X months before admissions, find an ancestor of Y race on our special website at Z months before submission, claim a disability of ABC and take a SAT/ACT/FGH test under that disability, etc. You'll have a score of III with Stanford, a score of JJJ with Harvard, and a score of LLL with your safety school. Yadda yadda yadda, and here's the percent chances for each school.

Hell, with AI and all this jazz, this won't even cost all that much and be the purview of the upper-middle class. You could likely just buy that service for under $100 by 2040.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#398
Clarence Thomas's concurrence does not mince words:

> This, [Justice Jackson] claims, locks blacks into a seemingly perpetual inferior caste. Such a view is irrational; it is an insult to individual achievement and cancerous to young minds seeking to push through barriers, rather than consign themselves to permanent victimhood. [...] What it cannot do is use the applicant’s skin color as a heuristic, assuming that because the applicant checks the box for “black” he therefore conforms to the university’s monolithic and reductionist view of an abstract, average black person.

> Accordingly, JUSTICE JACKSON’s race-infused world view falls flat at each step. Individuals are the sum of their unique experiences, challenges, and accomplishments. What matters is not the barriers they face, but how they choose to confront them. And their race is not to blame for everything—good or bad—that happens in their lives. A contrary, myopic world view based on individuals’ skin color to the total exclusion of their personal choices is nothing short of racial determinism.

> JUSTICE JACKSON then builds from her faulty premise to call for action, arguing that courts should defer to “experts” and allow institutions to discriminate on the basis of race. Make no mistake: Her dissent is not a vanguard of the innocent and helpless. It is instead a call to empower privileged elites, who will “tell us [what] is required to level the playing field” among castes and classifications that they alone can divine. Post, at 26; see also post, at 5–7 (GORSUCH , J., concurring) (explaining the arbitrariness of these classifications). Then, after siloing us all into racial castes and pitting those castes against each other, the dissent somehow believes that we will be able—at some undefined point—to “march forward together” into some utopian vision. Post, at 26 (opinion of JACKSON, J.). Social movements that invoke these sorts of rallying cries, historically, have ended disastrously.

> Unsurprisingly, this tried-and-failed system defies both law and reason. Start with the obvious: If social reorganization in the name of equality may be justified by the mere fact of statistical disparities among racial groups, then that reorganization must continue until these disparities are fully eliminated, regardless of the reasons for the disparities and the cost of their elimination. [...] If those measures were to result in blacks failing at yet higher rates, the only solution would be to double down. In fact, there would seem to be no logical limit to what the government may do to level the racial playing field—outright wealth transfers, quota systems, and racial preferences would all seem permissible. In such a system, it would not matter how many innocents suffer race-based injuries; all that would matter is reaching the race-based goal.

[...]

> The great failure of this country was slavery and its progeny. And, the tragic failure of this Court was its misinterpretation of the Reconstruction Amendments, as Justice Harlan predicted in Plessy. We should not repeat this mistake merely because we think, as our predecessors thought, that the present arrangements are superior to the Constitution.

> The Court’s opinion rightly makes clear that Grutter is, for all intents and purposes, overruled. And, it sees the universities’ admissions policies for what they are: rudderless, race-based preferences designed to ensure a particular racial mix in their entering classes. Those policies fly in the face of our colorblind Constitution and our Nation’s equality ideal. In short, they are plainly—and boldly—unconstitutional. See Brown II, 349 U. S., at 298 (noting that the Brown case one year earlier had “declare[d] the fundamental principle that racial discrimination in public education is unconstitutional”).

> While I am painfully aware of the social and economic ravages which have befallen my race and all who suffer discrimination, I hold out enduring hope that this country will live up to its principles so clearly enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States: that all men are created equal, are equal citizens, and must be treated equally before the law.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#399

The concept of affirmative action is foreign to me (quite literally so). I only know it from American media, and I've come understand it to mean "positively discriminate based on race, so long as it's a minority race" - please correct me of I'm wrong. But anyway, my question for the Americans here who grok this stuff: I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people…

For many in America, the race issue is more about who we are as a nation than it is about practical results. We want to identify as abolitionists, who defeated the slaveholders and moved toward "a more perfect union" (a line from the Constitution which Lincoln echoed in relation to the war). The disagreement is essentially about the best way to achieve equality, which though a nebulous term is accepted as a goal with…

Equality has fallen out of vogue, the new hot term is equity.

Re: Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's not mostly poor, hardworking ADOS (African descendents of slavery) students that benefit. It's rich, Black students that are benefiting, especially those from outside the US and no lineage from slavery. The problem with affirmative action is that everyone is only looking literally at skin color, which is the opposite of what we should be doing.

Yeah, the point should always have been explicitly to be reparations for slavery/Jim Crow and the Native American genocide. But that was never really explicit, and there was a lot of mission drift over the last fifty years.

Yes, and generations have passed, so that train has left the station, so to speak. Reparations are no longer an acceptable solution.
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