Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans • Hacker News Board

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#171

Post by deng » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

kenmacd wrote: post #167

deng wrote: post #33

Has the author of this article ever used a custom ROM? There are so many free alternatives for these apps out there. If I remember correctly, LineageOS ships with their own version of Dialer/Messages anyway. I usually replace them with the versions of SimpleMobileTools, which work just fine. The main difficulty for custom ROMs are not these standard apps. The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked, undo…

> The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked I haven't run in to that lately, but an issue I find much more annoying is the lack of support around re-locking with a custom root of trust. I think a few others support it, but I've only seen mention of it on the Pixel phones (and I won't buy Google hardware after they wouldn't replace my Pixel 3 that was bricked by their EDL hardware issue).

You are right, this is another issue. With an unlocked bootloader, you'll not be able to fully pass SafetyNet, for instance. I've also seen some forum posts that this should be possible for Motorola Moto G phones, but there were some warnings that if you do that, you might not be able to unlock your phone ever again, so I've never tried...

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#172

Post by euniceee3 » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

nologic01 wrote: post #159

Ok, naive question but I would dearly love to have an informed answer as another phone of mine is dying, it is still TINA and I can't for the life of me project how this will play out: The first iphone was released in 2007. That's like 15 years ago. People were probably toying with "smart" phones already few years before that. Its not that the world doesn't know how to manufacture smartphones and/or write software fo…

1% of a billion in RETAIL sales is a big number.

Manufacturers do not care about orders less than 10,000 units. They make their money off of volume.

The only government that seems to care about these topics is China, although the rest of the world seems to be catching up on a strong desire to tie the individual to a device.

Telecoms require $500,000 per device for certification through GSMA.

FOSS can only do so much with closed modems. Porting to new devices comes with a heap of issues that require time, which means scaling to market is not viable without $$$.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#173

Post by palata » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:17 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #129

palata wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm I think it's getting pretty easy today to get a de-Googled Android phone that "just works". You can buy Murena phones that come with /e/OS pre-installed (I did that). Probably the same with GrapheneOS/CalyxOS/etc. Users are lazy and don't want to take such a risk, but they do have a choice.

> Hmm I think it's getting pretty easy today to get a de-Googled Android phone that "just works". This is a wild exaggeration.

I literally bought a Fairphone 3+ that came with /e/ OS pre-installed. It gets updates like a normal Android, I never had to care about the fact that it is not a normal Android (i.e. I never had to run a weird installer or anything at all).

How is that not "pretty easy"?

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#174

Post by nologic01 » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:19 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #166

nologic01 wrote: post #159

Ok, naive question but I would dearly love to have an informed answer as another phone of mine is dying, it is still TINA and I can't for the life of me project how this will play out: The first iphone was released in 2007. That's like 15 years ago. People were probably toying with "smart" phones already few years before that. Its not that the world doesn't know how to manufacture smartphones and/or write software fo…

Here is why Librem 5 phone was very hard and expensive to build: https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/

> This development comes at a high price. We have a team of about 15 developers full time working on this for almost two years.

This is not peanuts but it also doesn't strike me as a serious bottleneck. It is a rounding error in the budget of any serious entity that might want to get involved in this.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#175

Post by deng » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:19 PM UTC

Grimburger wrote: post #70

deng wrote: post #33

Has the author of this article ever used a custom ROM? There are so many free alternatives for these apps out there. If I remember correctly, LineageOS ships with their own version of Dialer/Messages anyway. I usually replace them with the versions of SimpleMobileTools, which work just fine. The main difficulty for custom ROMs are not these standard apps. The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked, undo…

> Just look how Google effectively broke the AuroraStore App recently. For anyone who has been hit by this, you can workaround the api issue by long pressing on a playstore http link and clicking open in app (aurora icon). So you can't search using the app anymore, but if you have the link to what you want you can still install without playstore or a google account. It's frustrating but isn't the end.

Actually, it seems they have mostly fixed this, but I had to clean the app data to make it work again. Sometimes you get "Oops, you are rate limited", but that was just temporary.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#176

Post by palata » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #100

jraph wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds a bit pedantic to me, but okay :). Ah, the distinction is important indeed :-) The expectation is that things are improving. I think many people in the mobile Linux do think Android is doomed, or at least is not an interesting path anymore for the long run. That's what drives them. Android works, but has some flaws this ecosystem can't see being avoided. Being stuck with the custom kernel and the proprietary…

>Being stuck with the custom kernel Android already works on the kernel. You don't need a custom kernel. >and the proprietary drivers If it uses proprietary Linux kernel modules they will still be proprietary kernel modules without the rest of Android.

> You don't need a custom kernel.

Most Android devices use a downstream kernel that has modifications that were made specifically for the device. In other words, most Android devices are not mainlined. I guess it is reasonable to call "custom" anything that is not the mainline kernel, isn't it?

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#177

Post by euniceee3 » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

nologic01 wrote: post #168

LegitShady wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because manufacturing mobile phones is hard and expensive. Companies have large teams of hardware and software people will incentivized to develop phones and lots of them fail. The best we’ve got so far are exactly custom android builds like grapheneOS or lineage that replace software on phones other companies build. Apparently google doesn’t like that, though, so they’re going to continue to make AOSP worse and wors…

> Because manufacturing mobile phones is hard and expensive I appreciate that, but in 2021 there were like 1.8 billion phones manufactured and sold. Are you saying that none of those existing manufacturers can afford or is interested to offer a FOSS mobile?

Check out the Volla phone. Then look at the price and imagine a retail scenario where a person is going to purchase a "no name" FOSS phone or a Samsung. The scale of the marketing is unfathomable.

I agree with you. But you are assuming everyone in the world thinks logically, let alone understands why FOSS is a better option.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#178

Post by malwrar » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

nologic01 wrote: post #159

Ok, naive question but I would dearly love to have an informed answer as another phone of mine is dying, it is still TINA and I can't for the life of me project how this will play out: The first iphone was released in 2007. That's like 15 years ago. People were probably toying with "smart" phones already few years before that. Its not that the world doesn't know how to manufacture smartphones and/or write software fo…

Not an expert, but have worked on phones before. My guess: much more aspects of mobile phones are patented or secret, parts aren’t available to small purchasers, weak OSS culture around PCB design at the level of complexity a mobile phone achieves, lack of support from carriers, general complexity and variety of disciplines required to successfully construct a phone.

Remember that there’s also not really that many open source computers either. The difference is mostly that computers are designed to be general purpose OS booters, whereas phones are locked down consumption slabs.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#179

Post by palata » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:21 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #115

palata wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess anything is an opportunity to mention one's favourite project. Don't get me wrong: I like mobile Linux distros (played with PostmarketOS), but I think it is completely off topic. All this article says is that Google will stop supporting 2 apps. Open source apps maintained by others will replace them, for sure.

This is not completely off-topic. Google is moving away from open-source making Android more and more proprietary. If you care about it, there should be a moment after which you abandon Google and look elsewhere. For me, it already happened.

Yes, I abandoned Google, but I am still running an AOSP-based system :-).

AOSP is still open source, they just stopped maintaining two apps.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#180

Post by nologic01 » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 3:22 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #170

nologic01 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because manufacturing mobile phones is hard and expensive I appreciate that, but in 2021 there were like 1.8 billion phones manufactured and sold. Are you saying that none of those existing manufacturers can afford or is interested to offer a FOSS mobile?

What advantage does offering a FOSS based phone offer them?

A small but loyal customer base to start with, and a platform that can develop in directions that a duopoly would never have an interest in.