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Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

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Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: in the early days of silicon wafer manufacturing (60s or 70s IIRC) they would randomly have yields crater for a few days each month. Eventually they discovered yields were tanking when their female employee was on her period. Source: The Big Scoree

Why would yields be influenced by that?

No idea. Maybe she stayed home?

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#22
post #13

Automation is the only thing that will actually work in some situations now. Semiconductor manufacturing might be like a unicorn in terms of this paper. You can't really put humans into a factory without cratering the yield at 7nm and beyond. You see full-auto rates approaching 100% in the highest-end foundries. It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they ar…

Fun fact: in the early days of silicon wafer manufacturing (60s or 70s IIRC) they would randomly have yields crater for a few days each month. Eventually they discovered yields were tanking when their female employee was on her period. Source: The Big Scoree

Related: one of the fake cancer cures that James Randi (“The Amazing Randi”) debunked didn’t have very good test results in December when a particular person would take vacation. She was very Christian and took the whole month off to prep for Christmas. She also felt that faking test data was ethical because in her heart of hearts she wanted the cure to work. When Randi showed that the data was faked in all months except when she was on vacation.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#23
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I remember the discussion of this paper at my university a few decades ago. On your topic, I remember also a case that was discussed on a disinvestment of a fully automated factory. Loads of money was invested in the automation, but on several spots it still needed humans to glue the processes together. This work was so limited and dumb that no workers could be found who were able and willing to perform this t…

Back when the F-22 was in production, I was in the building in Seattle where the carbon fiber wing skins were being laid up using an automated tape placement machine. The machine head would come down to a precise 3D location on a complex contoured mold, contact it with a precise pressure, lay out a tow of CFRP tape prepreg for a precise length, then trim it to a specific geometry. Before the machine started the next…

I'm sure his family appreciated it. I think he'd be okay if you automated that but had to pay him the full salary anyway in perpetuity.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#24
post #13

Automation is the only thing that will actually work in some situations now. Semiconductor manufacturing might be like a unicorn in terms of this paper. You can't really put humans into a factory without cratering the yield at 7nm and beyond. You see full-auto rates approaching 100% in the highest-end foundries. It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they ar…

Fun fact: in the early days of silicon wafer manufacturing (60s or 70s IIRC) they would randomly have yields crater for a few days each month. Eventually they discovered yields were tanking when their female employee was on her period. Source: The Big Scoree

That sounds remarkably similar to many urban legends.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#25
post #13

Automation is the only thing that will actually work in some situations now. Semiconductor manufacturing might be like a unicorn in terms of this paper. You can't really put humans into a factory without cratering the yield at 7nm and beyond. You see full-auto rates approaching 100% in the highest-end foundries. It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they ar…

Fun fact: in the early days of silicon wafer manufacturing (60s or 70s IIRC) they would randomly have yields crater for a few days each month. Eventually they discovered yields were tanking when their female employee was on her period. Source: The Big Scoree

Source link or bs.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#26
post #13

Automation is the only thing that will actually work in some situations now. Semiconductor manufacturing might be like a unicorn in terms of this paper. You can't really put humans into a factory without cratering the yield at 7nm and beyond. You see full-auto rates approaching 100% in the highest-end foundries. It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they ar…

> It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they arrived at Foxconn or wherever.

Bonding is not automated AFAIK.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#27
post #26
post #13

Automation is the only thing that will actually work in some situations now. Semiconductor manufacturing might be like a unicorn in terms of this paper. You can't really put humans into a factory without cratering the yield at 7nm and beyond. You see full-auto rates approaching 100% in the highest-end foundries. It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they ar…

> It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they arrived at Foxconn or wherever. Bonding is not automated AFAIK.

Could you explain this a bit more? Do you mean wire bonding to package and/or silicon to interposer? Considering the number of bonds required and the extremely low cost of modern ICs, there's no way to manually bond them besides maybe precision stuff like the hand-trimmed Vishay resistors. The higher end modern chips are also BGA from silicon to interposer, or even directly WLCSP, so there's nothing for humans to do anyway.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#28
post #13

Automation is the only thing that will actually work in some situations now. Semiconductor manufacturing might be like a unicorn in terms of this paper. You can't really put humans into a factory without cratering the yield at 7nm and beyond. You see full-auto rates approaching 100% in the highest-end foundries. It is likely that all of the chips in all of your devices never saw any direct human contact until they ar…

Fun fact: in the early days of silicon wafer manufacturing (60s or 70s IIRC) they would randomly have yields crater for a few days each month. Eventually they discovered yields were tanking when their female employee was on her period. Source: The Big Scoree

The one I heard was that they had terrible yields until they figured out some guy was opening the packages in transit and hand counting the silicon wafers.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#29
post #2

Related: Ironies of Automation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33476157 - Nov 2022 (5 comments) Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23300195 - May 2020 (11 comments) Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19132724 - Feb 2019 (27 comments) Ironies of Automation (1983) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18230258 - Oct 2018 (3 comments)…

The point of this paper about the relationship and absurdity of human-machine automation could not be better summarized than dang having to chime in with all the past submissions of the same paper.

I don't have to, I want to! because I think readers like looking at old threads.

Re: Ironies of Automation (1983) [pdf]

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a factory like that! At one point the only remaining work was when something went wrong. The production line ran so fast, if something went wrong it produced enough garbage for 15 people to clean up. Not sure how they arrived at 15 but with fewer it took longer to resume production. I estimate the thing crashed from 2-3 times per day to every 3 days or so with the later more often. Took about 15-20 minutes to c…

> Investors didn't like to see people sit, chat and drink coffee I do believe that the "workers must be uncomfortable all the time" mentality drives a ton of inefficiency. When my son was born, my wife worked from home, but we still needed a nanny to watch him most of the time so my wife could work. So we hired a teenage girl to come over and keep an eye on him for $10/hour. He was a baby, so it was pretty easy work…

In the construction industry there seems to be some kind of thing where workers impose it on themselves or have to for competition.

I'm constantly seeing tool demo videos with comments full of "What, you're not strong enough to just use X?" where X is usually something unpleasant but sometimes slightly faster or cheaper, like phillips deck screws or driving screws with an drill instead of an impact.

It makes me wonder if the trades actually need to be as hard on people's bodies as they are. If the demand was there to make the tech a bit cheaper.... it seems like a lot of manual labor could be saved, but there's a culture of not complaining.

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