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Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

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Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#51

Post by palata »

gostsamo wrote: post #24
charcircuit wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pinephone can suffer from the same issue where people maintaining the software included may decide they no longer want to maintain their software anymore. It's no different for this. Either someone needs to step up to mountain it or you replace it with something else. Wanting to get rid of the rest of Android just because dialer and messenger are no longer maintained is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Pinephone has multiple compatible os-s, while most android phones don't have alternatives and become unusable if android drops support for them. Also, Google and the big OEM-s have the incentive to break compatibility to provide you with the newest gadget, which is not true for the pines. yet.

Wow... people, can you please just read a bit about AOSP before dropping such complaints?

There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them". Google maintains AOSP, but if they stopped doing that, probably AOSP would survive in some form. Also I am not convinced that companies like Samsung would be happy to go with a completely proprietary Google OS, so chances are that they would get more involved into AOSP.

Pinephone has nothing to do with the OS, it is a smartphone. You can install Linux mobile distros (like PostmarketOS) on many mainstream phones (like Samsung, etc), and you can install Android on your Pinephone. That is completely orthogonal.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#52

Post by nickelpro »

quaintdev wrote: post #45
deng wrote: post #33

Has the author of this article ever used a custom ROM? There are so many free alternatives for these apps out there. If I remember correctly, LineageOS ships with their own version of Dialer/Messages anyway. I usually replace them with the versions of SimpleMobileTools, which work just fine. The main difficulty for custom ROMs are not these standard apps. The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked, undo…

> It's getting more and more difficult to use Android without a Google Account. Good that is how they shoot themselves in the foot. The more they do this, the more people will realise they need alternative and ditch Android.

99.9% of consumers do not care about this and are totally willing (and expect) to connect their phone to their Google/Apple account

Not saying the grievance isn't valid, but don't fool yourself

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#53

Post by palata »

0xedd wrote: post #25
charcircuit wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pinephone can suffer from the same issue where people maintaining the software included may decide they no longer want to maintain their software anymore. It's no different for this. Either someone needs to step up to mountain it or you replace it with something else. Wanting to get rid of the rest of Android just because dialer and messenger are no longer maintained is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The difference is one is planned. Google promotes dependency on their services. There are alternatives to gapps. There are also alternatives to paved roads. The problem is they add more hoops to jump through. They care about the 99 percentile. Those won't keep chasing said hoops. While large orgs help maintain relevant FOSS, to them, AOSP is left to rot. In our case, several k employees, we have teams dedicated to re…

> There are alternatives to gapps. There are also alternatives to paved roads. The problem is they add more hoops to jump through.

Because going for a mobile linux distro does not involve jumping through hoops?

> While large orgs help maintain relevant FOSS, to them, AOSP is left to rot.

Not sure what you mean by that. AOSP is still maintained, and there are quite a few de-Googled ROMs (LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/OS, CalyxOS, ...) that are really becoming very good.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#54

Post by jraph »

pmontra wrote: post #28
jraph wrote: post #3

This is the kind of shit I thought could theoretically happen and it was one of the reason I got rid of Android a few years ago and got a PinePhone when my smartphone died. I've been counting on the Linux mobile ecosystem to develop so we have an good alternative to Android and iOS. It's not there yet. I need my phone to be reliable and IMHO, it would need to reliably let me place an emergency call if I ever needed i…

There are no real alternatives. I'm installing apps on a factory reset Samsung A40 from 2019. The last ones of all the process are banking apps, github (only because they decided I need 2FA (*)) and a digital identity one for my country, basically another 2FA. I really don't have an alternative for them. In theory I could leave an Android phone in a drawer at home for those apps, use WhatsApp web on the Pine, maybe T…

I have a PinePhone Pro, it's not too bad really. It's quite large for someone who wants a tiny phone but PinePhones are still experimental devices and its form factor is kinda the least of my concerns. I'm sure various form factors will follow with a mature Linux mobile ecosystem.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#55

Post by jraph »

palata wrote: post #53
0xedd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is one is planned. Google promotes dependency on their services. There are alternatives to gapps. There are also alternatives to paved roads. The problem is they add more hoops to jump through. They care about the 99 percentile. Those won't keep chasing said hoops. While large orgs help maintain relevant FOSS, to them, AOSP is left to rot. In our case, several k employees, we have teams dedicated to re…

> There are alternatives to gapps. There are also alternatives to paved roads. The problem is they add more hoops to jump through. Because going for a mobile linux distro does not involve jumping through hoops? > While large orgs help maintain relevant FOSS, to them, AOSP is left to rot. Not sure what you mean by that. AOSP is still maintained, and there are quite a few de-Googled ROMs (LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/OS,…

> Because going for a mobile linux distro does not involve jumping through hoops?

Parent said "add more hoops to jump through".

We are speaking about the direction and intents. Google makes it harder and harder to avoid the Google ecosystem.

Mobile Linux does not add hoops to jump through. The intent is making things easier as time passes.

Of course today all this is still experimental and of course you need to jump through many hoops.

> Not sure what you mean by that. AOSP is still maintained

Yes, the base system is still maintained, but the concern is that Google increasingly adds features into proprietary gapps instead of AOSP proper. And the post we are discussing is exactly a sign of this tendency.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#56

Post by palata »

I disagree with this title. I use /e/ OS, and I couldn't care less about that news. I already use a custom SMS app, and I am not even sure if my system comes with the default dialer.

There are many things Google can do to make like more difficult for custom ROMs, but I don't think this is one.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#57

Post by KingMachiavelli »

The real concern is not the loss of the AOSP apps but the lack of new but mandatory features in AOSP and even more undocumented APIs.

For example, RCS only works with Google messenger and there's no sign of that expanding (unless your Samsung). Even Visual Voicemail which should/is an open standard has a lot of carrier specific code (I think it can still be extracted from the Google Phone app but I'm not sure on the license).

NFC payments (tap2pay) seem to be impossible outside the few blessed implementations and even running those is a cat & mouse game with SafetyNet (now called Play Integrity).

Android is still the most open source mobile OS (that's functional and has real security; mobile Linux doesn't count). But IMO it better remember why people pick it over iOS.

I'm still optimistic, if open standards for the basic functionality is going to survive; it will be on Android.

- Sent from my Google Fold running GrapheneOS.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#58

Post by palata »

jraph wrote: post #55
palata wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are alternatives to gapps. There are also alternatives to paved roads. The problem is they add more hoops to jump through. Because going for a mobile linux distro does not involve jumping through hoops? > While large orgs help maintain relevant FOSS, to them, AOSP is left to rot. Not sure what you mean by that. AOSP is still maintained, and there are quite a few de-Googled ROMs (LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/OS,…

> Because going for a mobile linux distro does not involve jumping through hoops? Parent said " add more hoops to jump through". We are speaking about the direction and intents. Google makes it harder and harder to avoid the Google ecosystem. Mobile Linux does not add hoops to jump through. The intent is making things easier as time passes. Of course today all this is still experimental and of course you need to jump…

> Parent said "add more hoops to jump through".

But parent was talking about a comparison with running a Linux mobile distro on a PinePhone. Using PostmarketOS or similar (and don't get me wrong, I find PostmarketOS very cool) is still orders of magnitudes harder than using a custom ROM like /e/OS or CalyxOS. And those custom ROMs are improving fast, too.

> Mobile Linux does not add hoops to jump through. The intent is making things easier as time passes.

Same for custom Android ROMs. Except that they are already much more usable than Mobile Linux.

> Yes, the base system is still maintained, but the concern is that Google increasingly adds features into proprietary gapps instead of AOSP proper.

Google's strategy and lock-in with the Play Services is nothing close to a surprise. But again, I think dropping support for those two (basic, let's be honest) apps is really not a problem.

Actually a bigger problem, to me, is app developers who rely on the Play Services because it's easier for them, and because they don't care about custom ROMs. And of course Google pushes for that, but in the end, app developers can pretty easily do their part to not make life more difficult for custom ROMs.

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#59

Post by [deleted] »

quaintdev wrote: post #45
deng wrote: post #33

Has the author of this article ever used a custom ROM? There are so many free alternatives for these apps out there. If I remember correctly, LineageOS ships with their own version of Dialer/Messages anyway. I usually replace them with the versions of SimpleMobileTools, which work just fine. The main difficulty for custom ROMs are not these standard apps. The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked, undo…

> It's getting more and more difficult to use Android without a Google Account. Good that is how they shoot themselves in the foot. The more they do this, the more people will realise they need alternative and ditch Android.

[deleted]

Re: Google is about to make life more difficult for custom ROM fans

#60

Post by jraph »

palata wrote: post #51
gostsamo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinephone has multiple compatible os-s, while most android phones don't have alternatives and become unusable if android drops support for them. Also, Google and the big OEM-s have the incentive to break compatibility to provide you with the newest gadget, which is not true for the pines. yet.

Wow... people, can you please just read a bit about AOSP before dropping such complaints? There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them". Google maintains AOSP, but if they stopped doing that, probably AOSP would survive in some form. Also I am not convinced that companies like Samsung would be happy to go with a completely proprietary Google OS, so chances are that they would get…

Not really.

To run Linux mobile distros on regular Android phones, you need to have an Android base because essential features of these phones are implemented in closed source user space drivers that expect an Android system. You are basically stuck with the kernel your phone came with, plus some of its user space. That's what libhybris is for.

In practice, development of this is slow as far as I know, and you need someone to port your specific device to it so you can run linux distros on it. But distros maintainers are more or less focusing on the Pinephone and the Librem 5 now that devices not requiring such blobs.

As for running Android on the PinePhone, that's technically possible but in practice not much works AFAIK because people are focusing on the Linux mobile ecosystem instead.

> There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them".

In which ways the distinction is useful? In any case, when your Android phone manufacturer drops support for your device, you are pretty much stuck on your heavily customized Linux kernel and your closed-source userspace drivers that expect this old kernel and its specific patches. They also expect the specific version of Android the phone comes with because Android may change APIs and drop features they are relying on. Porting to newer Android versions is not always impossible, but it's hard work.

The PinePhone I boot in 2020 runs the latest mainline kernel, which is the whole point of this kind of device.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libhybris

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