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Decades-long bet on consciousness ends

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Re: Decades-long bet on consciousness ends

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm under the impression that science is what scientists do, which does seem to be observable?

Not exactly. Scientists are labelled scientists based on the methodologies they use and the fields they study in (which we call science). When a person practices science, they are called a scientist. When a scientist exhibits a behavior, that behavior is not necessarily called science.

That's a good clarification. However, exactly which methodologies a scientist uses doesn't seem like it makes a difference as to whether it counts as science, so long as it's still in the general spirit of the thing? This is decided culturally.

Also, it seems like there's more to understanding methodology than deciding what counts as science?

To go back to the ant analogy, people had fuzzy ideas about what an ant looks like. Some people might have called other bugs ants even though today we don't. This later led to more precise definitions under scientific taxonomy, where some species are scientifically classified as ants. But there's a lot more to understanding ant behavior than deciding what counts as an ant.

(Also, the definition of what an ant is co-evolved with scientific understanding of ants. Taxonomy existed before the theory of evolution and taxonomies were refined with genetic testing.)

Re: Decades-long bet on consciousness ends

#302

> Consciousness is everything a person experiences — what they taste, hear, feel and more. It is what gives meaning and value to our lives, Chalmers says. > Despite a vast effort — and a 25-year bet — researchers still don’t understand how our brains produce it, however. “It started off as a very big philosophical mystery,” Chalmers adds. “But over the years, it’s gradually been transmuting into, if not a ‘scientific…

You can look the definition of qualia or phenomenal. There is a ton of philosophical discussion. But basically, it means the experiences of color, sound, etc. that humans have, and whatever additional kinds of sensations animals with different sensory organs (like sonar in bats) have. Which doesn't preclude other sorts of physical systems from being conscious, just depending on what you think results in conscious exp…

I agree with your definition, but also wonder, isn't it kind of self-referential? I almost get an "Ignotum per ignotius" (or "Ignotum per æque ignotum") [1] feel reading this definition.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignotum_per_ignotius

Re: Decades-long bet on consciousness ends

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. Scientists are labelled scientists based on the methodologies they use and the fields they study in (which we call science). When a person practices science, they are called a scientist. When a scientist exhibits a behavior, that behavior is not necessarily called science.

That's a good clarification. However, exactly which methodologies a scientist uses doesn't seem like it makes a difference as to whether it counts as science, so long as it's still in the general spirit of the thing? This is decided culturally. Also, it seems like there's more to understanding methodology than deciding what counts as science? To go back to the ant analogy, people had fuzzy ideas about what an ant loo…

The heart of the science profession is the scientific method (just like the heart of the firefighting profession is fighting fires), but there are many other activities that scientists and firefighters perform that are not science or firefighting, such as writing grant proposals or doing maintenance on firetrucks.

Ants (today) are classified differently from scientists and firefighters. They are not defined based on a specific thing they do, like "anting"; rather, they are defined based on what they are, and their behavior is irrelevant to their classification.

Historically, animal categories were defined much more like professions. A fish was something that primarily swims; a bird was something that primarily flies; a worm was something that primarily slithers; a beast (the category that ants fell into) was something that primarily crawls. Even concepts like "animal" and "plant" were defined this way: animals are animated, while plants are planted in place. There was a lot of debate on how to categorize lifeforms that exhibited less-than-crytal-clear modes of locomotion, just as there is debate today on whether a given person is actually a scientist or not (do they do real science or pseudoscience? do they do a lot of science or is too little science for it to count? etc.).

This, of course, is radically different from the way we classify biological lifeforms now, although there are a few odd historical holdovers (like "fish", which is a catch-all term for aquatic vertebrates without terrestrial ancestors, even though some of them are more closely related to land animals than they are to other fish).

Re: Decades-long bet on consciousness ends

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statistics ?! Please elaborate! You are exploring possible links between humanities engagement and pathologically convoluted sentence structure, eh? :) But anyway, my bachelors degree was a "combined major" of comp. sci. / philosophy, several decades ago. I still have a strong interest in philosophy of mind but not in any professional capacity. Hope it helps.

I didn't actually keep track of complexity of sentence structure as a function humanities engagement level yet, but... good idea! According to my ad-hoc statistics, basically the position on consciousness breaks down as follows: 1. Physics/chemistry: "We don't know what Consciousness is, but let us propose a new particle-of-the-day to explain it" 2. Humanities: "We don't know what Consciousness is, but let us propose…

Haha, thanks for the reply, just seen this. Nicely summarized!

I guess I'd come under Humanities as far as my interest in consciousness goes, but I'm more "We don't know what Consciousness is, but let's at least stop trying to pretend it's nothing but X (or Y, or Z)" (Aimed mostly at groups 1 & 3 by your schema, I guess).

Re: Decades-long bet on consciousness ends

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't actually keep track of complexity of sentence structure as a function humanities engagement level yet, but... good idea! According to my ad-hoc statistics, basically the position on consciousness breaks down as follows: 1. Physics/chemistry: "We don't know what Consciousness is, but let us propose a new particle-of-the-day to explain it" 2. Humanities: "We don't know what Consciousness is, but let us propose…

Haha, thanks for the reply, just seen this. Nicely summarized! I guess I'd come under Humanities as far as my interest in consciousness goes, but I'm more "We don't know what Consciousness is, but let's at least stop trying to pretend it's nothing but X (or Y, or Z)" (Aimed mostly at groups 1 & 3 by your schema, I guess).

I'm technically in group 3, of course, and aware of it.

In defense of "my side" though, I think you're responding to a straw man/stereotype a little bit. (said the person who just listed 5 stereotypes)

For one thing, I tell people to stop saying 'nothing but'. Humans are not 'nothing but' monkeys. Do You Know How Smart Monkeys Are? I say it's an honor to be counted among their kind!

Possibly the other stereotypes have some grain of sanity to them in the same way.

Except Philosophy of Mathematics. Tripping without LSD, that's what they are. And probably wouldn't even deny it when challenged.

Thanks for answering, and have a great day!

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