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We raised a bunch of money

fly.io

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Re: We raised a bunch of money

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People forget AWS is 20 years old. When I routinely remind people of that fact they often remark (incredulously) with "WHAT? Really?" When I think about it the entire paradigm of "regions" itself seems completely antiquated in the grand scheme of things. AWS has made a few moves on this but in the end you're largely still tied to this fundamental regional concept in terms of control planes, etc and you incur the ridi…

The realities of regions don’t go away. It’s a primitive to save you money. If a new entrant doesn’t have it they are either just operating in one region or you’re paying cross-region prices for everything.

It really doesn't though. Sure, it would if the difference is only "16 mega-regions (regional-model) versus 300 mini-regions (edge)". But that's not the difference.

The actual difference, at least how Cloudflare pushes it, is in the software; its a higher layer of abstraction; that customers get to stop thinking about regions and locations. Your software is global; its deployed everywhere; it runs everywhere.

This is ENTIRELY antithetical to everything on AWS except CloudFront, Route53, IAM(ish), maybe a couple other minor services. Every Single Thing Every Single AWS Customer configures beyond those global services forces you into a region. Want to deploy a lambda function? Which region would you like? Pricing and available products is different in every region. Fronting it with an API? Where would you like that API Gateway? We'll put CloudFront in front of it so its a bit faster for ya, its global(ish), don't worry.

In a no-true-scottsman true-edge world, this goes out the window. Cloudflare Workers is like this; D1 is kinda-ish-there-ish; R2 isn't. Here's the code; spider it across the world; automatically route clients to your closest PoP. No regions. No locations.

Its not obvious that AWS will ever make meaningful moves to a world like this, for a ton of reasons, but most meaningfully: it requires customer demand; but AWS's existing customers aren't demanding it, because AWS's customers are old CTOs worried about past quarters too much to think about the next one. The younger, smarter, potential customers who recognize how valuable this is aren't AWS's customers; so AWS never hears from them (which, by the way, should more generally concern Amazon's investors; their "relentless customer driven" approach to their products is great for a few decades, but its absolutely true that most of the time customers just want a faster horse, and you're not hearing from the people who aren't your customers because you've never solved their problems before). So, Amazon has dumped billions upon billions into their couple-dozen giga-regions; you cannot pivot that into hundreds upon hundreds of mini-regions like what Cloudflare (and to a lesser but still awesome degree Fly) has.

Vercel is the best case study on this. They are exploding in popularity. They don't run any of their own infra afaik, to be clear, but they whitelabel products from Cloudflare, Neon, and others; all Edge infra providers. No one on Vercel is cross-shopping AWS, and AWS has nothing that feels competitive to what Vercel offers. They can't compete.

The outcome, in maybe 10-20 years, of this landscape feels really obvious right now, but AWS's size and the insane scale of their investment into "how we did things in 2010" will turn them into the next IBM. Some would say they already are. There's nothing they can do about it. They're not making the right investments. Even if they wanted to, they can't at the necessary scale, because what they're doing is working right now and their existing customers keep forcing them to spend more money building more structures, more racks, more blades, all in Ashburn VA.

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#402
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stateless compute is relatively simple to be region-less, but even fly’s homepage has a map of regions. When state is introduced, then CAP/PACELC distributed systems issues arise, and figuring out approaches to deal with them are a must. Read fly’s Postgres docs, and regions come right back in.

This is Fly - a much earlier stage company and them receiving early funding is the genesis of this entire discussion. I point to Cloudflare (what I'm most familiar with). Across their entire stack of compute, storage, db, etc product lines you won't see a hint of region anywhere. It just works, everywhere. Same with Fastly/Oracle (although they like Fly are quite a ways behind Cloudflare). I suspect (hope) that as Fl…

> you won't see a hint of region anywhere.

https://developers.cloudflare.com/d1/learning/data-location/

  Hint Hint description
  wnam Western North America
  enam Eastern North America
  weur Western Europe
  eeur Eastern Europe
  apac Asia-Pacific
There is no free lunch here. This is always a game of information theory and physics at the end.

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#403
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stateless compute is relatively simple to be region-less, but even fly’s homepage has a map of regions. When state is introduced, then CAP/PACELC distributed systems issues arise, and figuring out approaches to deal with them are a must. Read fly’s Postgres docs, and regions come right back in.

This is Fly - a much earlier stage company and them receiving early funding is the genesis of this entire discussion. I point to Cloudflare (what I'm most familiar with). Across their entire stack of compute, storage, db, etc product lines you won't see a hint of region anywhere. It just works, everywhere. Same with Fastly/Oracle (although they like Fly are quite a ways behind Cloudflare). I suspect (hope) that as Fl…

"Won't see a hint of region anywhere" is an exaggeration.

Here's the Durable Objects documentation [1]. Don't those "location hints" look like regions?

Also, here's the "Data location" page for Cloudflare D1 [2]. See "available hints" at the bottom.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Cloudflare's architecture is designed around having lots of regions, automatic migrations between them, and no guarantee about which one you'll get. But they're still there.

[1] https://developers.cloudflare.com/workers/runtime-apis/durab...

[2] https://developers.cloudflare.com/d1/learning/data-location/

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#404
post #242
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not. For a company of our age and scale? To claim competitive reliability to the world's most important data center? Risible. We're making fun of the fact that everybody deploys their apps in a random city in Virginia with like 3 restaurants in it. We're not saying they're dumb to do it, or that Ashburn isn't up to the challenge --- it self-evidently is. (The comment I'm responding to said something about peopl…

Ashburn does not have "like three restaurants". The datacenter zoned part of the city has "like three restaurants". If you ever drove >5 minutes from those large shed warehouses, you'd know what you're talking about.

You are probably thinking of Sterling, Chantilly, etc.

Ashburn is literally like the Embassy Suites next to the Five Guys, the Aloft next to the taco place, Equinix, Digital Reality, Verizon, NTT, CenturyLink, etc.

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#405
post #228

"We raised a bunch of money" Generally speaking (I'm not a fly.io customer) at this point that phrase WORRIES me as a customer of any service. It makes me think that the company exists just on a constant flow of VC or similar money and what I'm using or paying for isn't a realistic or future cost and I'm involved with a system or platform that is getting stretched larger and larger regardless of income and the more m…

That's interesting.

When I see such a message from a service where I'm a customer, it removes worry.

- It validates the product.

- It tells me that they're more likely to succeed than their competitors.

- I'm confident they won't go away anytime soon.

- I expect them to improve their product faster.

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Florida you have so many hispanic citizens that they have significant representation in local politics. In this specific county you have more cloud servers serving rails apps. However, they're not citizens and can't get elected to public service.

This answer, while correct, somehow feels very GPT.

Honestly the question felt very Llama in the sense that it didn't really pass my Turing test, so I couldn't really answer it in a way that didn't feel robotic.

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an entirely possible and alternative funding model that perpetually allocates a responsible amount of incremental funds for the purposes of novel R&D. It's trivial to imagine how a responsible incremental funding approach could create a better, more transparent, more estimable, more reportable, more mappable, more rigorously trackable innovation process. Raising massive lump sums of money is about VALUATION.…

> There is an entirely possible and alternative funding model that perpetually allocates a responsible amount of incremental funds for the purposes of novel R&D. This works for some but not all business ventures. There's a reason corporations were invented in the Age of Sail. If you build 5% of a ship, you can't sail to the New World and bring back 5% of the resources. You just sink in the harbor. (The moral implicat…

[deleted]

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#408
post #102
post #83

I'm really struggling to understand fly.io's path to profitability considering the relatively low margins for SMB/hobby clouds. They could have the whole world on their free tier but what happens when it's time for EQT to cash out? Can they build enough features to make fly.io a serious option for companies? I just can't see myself using it or pushing for it at any of the companies I've worked for unless it's a <5 pe…

I don't want to sound flippant, because this is hard as fuck, but the profitability path for us is reasonably simple: have good unit margins, attract customers, help them grow. We have good unit economics. The riskiest, most terrifying thing we've done is start with our own hardware. For dev focused infrastructure, what we need to do is attract a lot of devs, get them to take us to work, and then help their employers…

I'm genuinely curious, how does the hardware investment make sense for a SaaS platform when bare metal can be leased as a service from Equinix and such? It the difference in TCO between bare metal you own and bare metal you lease really that large after factoring in the cost of all the logistics and labor?

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm mis-understanding the "Deploy App Servers Close to Your Users" thing. I don't get how moving your app servers far from your database makes things faster. Typically the app is more chatty with the db than with the client. So it is better for your app and db servers to be close together, even if they are far from some segment of users. If fly made distributed databases "heroku easy" that would be impressive,…

We have a "built-in" (for lack of a better term --- it's just another Fly app) multi-region single-write-leader clustered Postgres offering, but people also run their own databases directly here; the core feature is regionalized durable NVMe storage.

Yes, with a big disclaimer that "this is not managed Postgres" [1] and a list of alternatives at the end. As a hobbyist building a small website for fun, I took the hint and chose one of those.

You get to choose a region for your database, so now I'm thinking about how I want to deal with that.

[1] https://fly.io/docs/postgres/getting-started/what-you-should...

Re: We raised a bunch of money

#410
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your lawn guy stays in business - which is relevant to them and to you (for as long as you're a customer). If the market is efficient, there should be reasonable competition that you can switch to that more aligns with your needs.

My lawn guy, and his competitor, just got acquired by a company that only mows the median strips along highways.

My lawn guy got shut down by google.
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