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The damaging results of mandated return to office

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Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#301

Post by sanderjd »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #272
the_bear wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people who want to work from the office are mostly interested in doing so because they want to be around their coworkers. If their coworkers are remote, they won't get what they want. Similarly, remote people might not be happy at a company that allows remote work but primarily has an in-person culture. Letting everyone do what they want is not a path towards everyone being happy. I think a better approach is fo…

I understand that point of view but I don't agree with it. I work remotely because my coworkers are in different countries. But some of them come to local offices because they like it. This is a great setup for everybody and noone is complaining. I know anecdata doesn't count but I observed the same in various companies: yes, those who prefer to work from the office miss their colleagues, but are surrounded by like-m…

As long as the company is large enough for there to be a critical mass of people in a bunch of locales, I think this works great. I work for a company with < 100 people spread across like 10 time zones, and I wish it made sense for us to have some office space in my city where I could work with people sometimes, but it doesn't because there are only three of us and we don't work on the same things.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#302

Post by sanderjd »

technofiend wrote: post #284
NKosmatos wrote: post #103

Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. It’s like going from a black and white TV to a color one, from a dummy phone to a smartphone, from dialup internet to fiber to the home. You never go the other way round, unless there is a very strong reason and personal decision. People like to improve their lives in whatever way is best for them and will strongly object to a “downgra…

I work in an office for a company that's headquartered in another state, so even when in the office it's often been a "remote work" experience for me. What we have today is a natural and logical progression from all the improvements meant to make it easier for people to work together, regardless of location. You have to remember at one time people actually left their desks to go to a conference room and meet. The fir…

I deeply miss going to a conference room to meet with my colleagues.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#303

Post by hosh »

n4r9 wrote: post #190
hosh wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to work it even within tech companies. I have been working remote for years before the pandemic made it mainstream. In one of the companies I worked for, I was not the first remote worker. The first person in the company pioneered the tech, practices, and culture to make it work as a hybrid. After I came in, bit by bit, the engineering team went remote. So when the pandemic hit, the company had already had a…

I'd be grateful to read a little more detail about what those best practices are, if you have a chance?

I think I have only read a couple articles about it, but I don’t have them.

Just off the top of my head, unorganized:

- manage outcomes instead of time spent

- Explicit presence: as a remote worker, you have to be explicit and deliberate about making your presence known. Status emojis, socialization, and “thinking out loud” threads

- Use [async] tags in messages whenever you can to help manage urgency of reply. Same with statuses

- Daily standups become even more important in order to promote social bonding, including brief chit-chat right before everyone shows up. Video if you can. It is about the only time the team bonds together

- Use the zoom chat for backchannel, so that you can still get something out without interrupting the speaker

- Having said that: Slack history records everything. Do not use Zoom chat as meeting notes. Put that into Slack, and then into Confluence/Notion/OneNote.

- Shared documents to work out a plan over Zoom helps keeps things focused

- You will be exercise writing a lot more. Leverage that. Be more thoughtful about replies. You can always link to conversations in tickets and documents

- Make use of do not disturb and periods when not to recieve notifications

- Keep your calendar up to date. Make sure to block out maker time (focus time), lunch, async times, and when you are running errands. That way, people can quickly schedule a time with you if needed

- Slack huddles in open channels can simulate drop-in calls. If you like pairing, you can start a huddle with yourself and work there. Rename the huddle to make it clear that you are open to drop ins, add a summary in the huddle thread to make the work visible

- hybrid meetings suck. People in person have to make more of an effort to make people who are remote in known. Conference rooms should be setup to put zoom folks on the wall, and zoom folks should put their video up. (It works better as all in person or all zoom meeting)

- team, dept, and maybe company should periodically bring everyone together onsite to do the things you cannot do remote

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#304

Post by Etheryte »

sanderjd wrote: post #296
Etheryte wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They edited their comment after the fact to add this part, it was not there originally.

I have no idea whether that's true, but it is not necessary for the comment to say "to each their own" for the commenter to have just been expressing a personal preference. They weren't making an "argument".

Since it seems I wasn't clear, the parent comment we're currently discussing has been considerably modified compared to what it was at first. You're free to disagree, but in my opinion the original tone of their comment very much did make an argument. But I do suppose you could label every comment as just a personal preference, because that's what they are at the end of the day.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#305

Post by hosh »

hosh wrote: post #303
n4r9 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be grateful to read a little more detail about what those best practices are, if you have a chance?

I think I have only read a couple articles about it, but I don’t have them. Just off the top of my head, unorganized: - manage outcomes instead of time spent - Explicit presence: as a remote worker, you have to be explicit and deliberate about making your presence known. Status emojis, socialization, and “thinking out loud” threads - Use [async] tags in messages whenever you can to help manage urgency of reply. Same…

Maybe I should write a small, well-organized ebook about this for sale. I’ve been looking for small side project

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#306

Post by ryandrake »

mikrotikker wrote: post #239
Lewton wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer going to the office, not because of the social aspect, but because I strongly prefer separating my work from my personal life I really enjoyed back when working from the office was optional and I was the only one showing up!

I'm lucky in that I converted a rather fancy woodshed into an office/lab with lots of Ethernet ports so my work can stay in there. When I was I the house it wasn't as good since I could still hear the slack and email noises from the lounge etc.

This helps A LOT. I am also extremely lucky enough to have a separate structure on my property that acts as my WFH office. It's got a window, a closing door, two desks, enough room for plenty of monitors, gigabit ethernet, and is totally separate from the chaos of a home with kids. That 10 second walk from home to office is sufficient to get me from "home mode" to "work mode".

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#307

Post by muttled »

tetromino_ wrote: post #270
Cymrukicks wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could keep your jobs and move to a lower cost of living area making us of more space?

Irrespective of lack of space, NYC is the only place in the US where I have enjoyed living.

Not that they'd do this, but if the company offered what it was paying for office space for you as a stipend for your home office, would that change your mind? Some quick Google math suggests an average of $80/sqft/year for NYC office space and suggests 100 sqft per-person for an open-office worker which comes out to $600-700 a month. Again, cursory Google search, but it looks like that's right about the price increase to go from a 2BR to a 3BR and have a home office.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#308

Post by ryandrake »

glimshe wrote: post #259
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I don't understand the insistence on RTO. It's clear from all discussions that people have different views on the topics. So why don't give people a choice? Those who want to work in the office should be free to do so, as should be the rest of us who sees no reasons to go back. In this scenario everybody is happy and more productive.

I'm all for WFH and dislike going to the office often. But it's the same argument as the parent, from the company's perspective. Once local executives taste the fruits of in-person "watch the cattle" control, which was the entirety of their careers, it's hard for them to go back to "forced worker freedom".

I'd love to glimpse into the minds of the corporate exec class and understand why they are so uniformly aligned on RTO and against WFH. Is it really as simple and primal as wanting to watch the cattle or "behold my empire" or do they really believe it's better for business?

I guess I'll never know since, 1. corporate execs don't post to HN comments section and 2. even if they did they would probably not admit to a narcissistic need to bask in the buzz of an office full of their minions.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#309

Post by wiether »

ornornor wrote: post #101
jupp0r wrote: post #57

Companies who mandate return to the office should pay employees for the additional commute time at their hourly rate. If this becomes too expensive then productivity gains from being in the office are apparently not worth it.

I once worked some place where my manager loved to tell this allegedly true story (happened before my tour) as a hilarious joke to onboard new devs on how to fill the timesheet: There was this IC who was working on cross departmental stuff. Things like pipelines, UI component libraries, build tools, etc. He would frequently go on walks to think, either during the work day and return to the office or to go back home a…

> employers still think that butt not in seat = not working

I don't like coffee breaks because I just drink water and I find small-talk very tiresome. I also don't smoke. So I never take breaks except for when I'm stuck on something and I need a walk to think it through.

Multiple times, managers or people even higher have complained of both : not taking coffee breaks and taking walking breaks.

To me it's not exactly "butt not in seat = not working", it's more "not behaving like everyone else = not working".

But when you come with a solution/idea that none of the regular coffee break takers had, now they're glad that you're not like everyone else. Weird.

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