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Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

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Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#111
post #46
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic makes no sense. What about no smoking spaces? Basically every nation implements these and it benefits everyone (including smokers, more reasons to quit). Are you going to try and tell me "no smoking in front of the building" is the new apartheid? Smoking and parenthood are lifestyle choices, which have consequences. Skin color is not, and shouldn't. It is not relevant to the conversation.

Parenthood isn't always a lifestyle decision and being a child certainly never is.

I'm gonna take a stand here and say that up until extremely recently in the US, parenthood almost invariably was a deliberate decision. When abortion was legal in all 50 states and programs were available that offered free family planning services (contraceptives and abortions) to low-income households who might not otherwise have the means to access these services, parenthood became almost ubiquitously optional.

In any case, the woman has, at minimum, several months of time between the moment she becomes aware of a pregnancy and the moment a viable, live birth occurs.

Since the 70's, PP could get you in same week for an abortion. It didn't matter what the pregnant woman's skin color, income/wealth, zip code, age, disability, national origin, religious views, or any other bit of demographic data was - this was something rapidly and easily accessible to anyone with thousands of locations across the U.S.

Granted, this has regrettably changed in recent times, so I'll give you that.

On a tangent - it's so bizarre to me that when the conservatives who can almost incessantly be found talking about the importance of "small government" finally seized a modicum of real power in the US via SC majority, some of their very first actions were increasing the scope of the rules and regulations of big government. :|

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#112
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Breed for the good of the nation" isn't the compelling argument it once was.

You might apply to that anything if you want to go full individualism - from taxes to vaccines but that is not how societies work. Only on paper for the libertarian types.

I will say this in defense of libertarian individualism: I think you should have a right to opt-out of being a citizen of any given country. The ability to do so, in practice, varies from totalitarian states where you physically cannot leave without risking being killed to western liberal democracies where you're allowed to renounce citizenship with just one condition - get another citizenship first.

While the latter is certainly extremely reasonable and humane relative to the former, that condition is still an insurmountable barrier for lower income, cognitively impaired, or otherwise vulnerable folks.

If you lack the means to obtain another citizenship, you are more or less the partial property of the government you were born into (given they are legally entitled to a portion of all your earnings), and you have no way of leaving.

That we more or less "trap" the vulnerable into partial financial servitude wherever they're born makes me mildly uncomfortable in the same manner that the concept of chattel slavery makes me deeply uncomfortable - no person or institution ought to have such dominion over another living, breathing person that the latter cannot disassociate from former.

We wax and wane about the necessity of such resulting from the social contract, but the social contract is the only contract I know of that is both serious and enforced (even if not literally defined), whilst not being one that you enter into voluntarily.

A key component of what renders a contract valid in contractual law in the US (stemming from common law) is that all parties to the contract must enter into it voluntarily, with full knowledge of it, free from coercion or deception.

We at least ought to stop calling it a "contract" and start calling it what it really is - Demands for involuntary tributes to the ruling elites (who benefits more from taxpayer dollars - the poor and needy, or Lockheed Martin executives?), that you must comply with under threat of force, up to and including lethal if you resist the wrong way.

I'm not saying the alternative is simple, but it seems unjust to me that human societies force their most vulnerable people into subservient economic relationships with governments (that have lengthy track records of using those very same tax dollars to perform horrific and flagrant atrocities against humanity, like drone bombing weddings, abducting and torturing innocent people, etc), based purely on where they're born.

Animals don't engage in this kind of depravity - why must we?

I hope the societies of the distant future look back on our current system of government and see it for the barbaric, medieval, and inhumane institution it really was.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#113
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic makes no sense. What about no smoking spaces? Basically every nation implements these and it benefits everyone (including smokers, more reasons to quit). Are you going to try and tell me "no smoking in front of the building" is the new apartheid? Smoking and parenthood are lifestyle choices, which have consequences. Skin color is not, and shouldn't. It is not relevant to the conversation.

Childfree is a lifestyle choice which must be taxed (and already is in some countries like Germany). Parenthood is a matter of survival of our species and our economy.

Childfree absolutely isn't a choice for everyone. The idea that we should punish those who are too unattractive, disfigured, or disabled to attact potential mates, or those with medical conditions preventing them from having offspring, or those with highly heritable diseases that would negatively impact the quality of life of their offspring, is as inhumane and cruel of an idea as I could think of. There is no justification for punishing those who already have a hard enough life as-is, give them a break FFS!

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#114
post #80

(Disclosure, I am a parent and a happy one.) There is something so bleak about the quiet child hate in the modern world. To me, it implies on some level a lack of hope for a better future. This is as far as I can tell, a systemic problem of the modern world. Yes, bad kids are annoying. We've all been there. The problem is the behavior, not the fact that the misbehaving human is young. I'd be perfectly fine with desig…

It's not child hate, unless you count the sarcastic younger generations' dark jokes. For me and my wife, it was a rational decision. We never enjoyed kids much, we have careers that we wanted to fully pursue, and other people are having enough kids to make up for our lack of 1-2 more. We're also convinced that the world is overpopulated. What's the advantage of being 9 billion or more against being, say, 5 billion? The happiest countries in the world have lower population density, so the resources aren't as strained, and the natural beauty is still afordable to all. Dwindling gradually shouldn't be as disruptive as we're made to believe.

That, and also the glomy future our kids would have had. The biggest culprits of climate change and pollution aren't giving signs of stopping anytime soon (even more with the recent demagogic resurgence), and while we'll be dead in a few more decades, the younger generations will live in harder times than we did. Not having kids is also an abstentionist stament, because people who want more kids overlap significantly with people who don't care about the world they'll be leaving to those kids.

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