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The damaging results of mandated return to office

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Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#171

Post by pvdoom »

NKosmatos wrote: post #103

Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. It’s like going from a black and white TV to a color one, from a dummy phone to a smartphone, from dialup internet to fiber to the home. You never go the other way round, unless there is a very strong reason and personal decision. People like to improve their lives in whatever way is best for them and will strongly object to a “downgra…

Yes. And a big reason why working in the office was a thing is pretty much legacy from the dawn of industry... and of course the fundamental power imbalance from having to sell your time to someone.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#172

Post by hosh »

Kiro wrote: post #128
throwawaylinux wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most IT and engineering (and probably other "IP based") companies are "remote ready" for the right person. It's not some vast change or investment they have to make, really. You use the laptop they give you and connect from a different place, and continue to go about your job more or less the same way as does everybody who works with you, since most places are perfectly used to remote meetings and have been for decad…

I'm not talking about IT or engineering. Anyway, it's not as easy as you say and I have the result right in front of me. The company has not mandated return to office but is still struggling a lot with this so what exactly is the choice by management here? They clearly want it to be a remote company. Another example is my SO who works for a now-flex remote government agency where they are not authorized to use any of…

Remote work and collaboration requires a very different skillset in order to be effective. So if a company clearly wants to do that (both leadership and staff trying to make things work), it is probably time to bring in a consultant — maybe someone with an anthropology or sociology background that can look at how everyone interacts together with the technology, and can suggest gradual changes there.

An example: in some companies, the receptionist knows who has entered and exited the building, and can sometimes become the defacto person that can help people find each other. Someone whose effectiveness depends upon this informal role of the receptionist will find that they can’t work like this anymore when the company goes remote.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#173

Post by pvdoom »

ensocode wrote: post #162
NKosmatos wrote: post #103

Once you’ve tasted the fruits of WFH and you like the taste, you’ll never go back. It’s like going from a black and white TV to a color one, from a dummy phone to a smartphone, from dialup internet to fiber to the home. You never go the other way round, unless there is a very strong reason and personal decision. People like to improve their lives in whatever way is best for them and will strongly object to a “downgra…

True. Maybe it is even the other way around. A farmer lives on his farm. He works there, he raises his family there, grows his food there, lives there, has his friends around there. For my perspective it is more back to the roots than progressive. If you can work from the place were you live then this is more natural than commuting into the office block every day. Technology here gave us a opportunity to live a more…

I think it's both. A farmer could do that, because they tend to own their farm. A worker usually has no ownership in the business. They're more like farmhands ...

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#174

Post by randomdata »

malfist wrote: post #56
m348e912 wrote: post #55

I think a good solution is industries should standardize on pay differential between working at the office full time, vs hybrid, vs full time work from home. Here is just an example: Looking at the same exact job. Office workers would make 20% more than the WFH employees and Hybrid workers would make 10% more than WFH employees. Now employees have incentives to pursue jobs on both ends of the spectrum. Maybe the empl…

Why is the cost of my labor different if I'm in the office or not. I produce the same work, I should be compensated the same

Compensation is determined by how much it takes to get someone to do the work, not the work itself. Generally speaking, it takes more money to convince someone to come into an office. If an employer finds value in having people in an office, they have to pony up, else nobody will show up.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#175

Post by gridspy »

flaminHotSpeedo wrote: post #109
slategruen wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar thing is happening here in Philippines. The government basically gave tax breaks to companies who will utilize their office spaces in city centers. To no one's surprise, most of the local companies are now forcing return-to-office. The government justification is: people spend more when they regularly go the the office thus, stimulating the economy.

There's a lot of unconfirmed scuttlebutt that companies in major American metro areas have similar motivations... I can say with the utmost confidence that spending more time and money downtown is the last thing that my 3 hour round trip commute motivates me to do

I doubt it motivates you to travel home for lunch!

It sounds like you'd be very unlikely to enter downtown for any other reason. Also, may I suggest you move your home or employment? 3 hours is a lot of commuting and that is bad for you.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#176

Post by HelloNurse »

thegrumpyenby wrote: post #156
lynx23 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people do you know? When WFH was mandated, I hated it. When the mandate was finally kicked, I loved going back to the office, and have spent almost every workday at the office, despite having the possibility to do 40% WFH if I wanted. No, I don't want that, thank you. Not a coder, working as admin. I like people, that is why I work in an office. And personal experience is definitely that working together wit…

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Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#178

Post by pgeorgi »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #100
RestlessMind wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with little evidence that’s a better way to work. You are assuming that decision makers are dumb. I disagree with that. My null hypothesis is that they are smart, competent people and are doing the best decision according to data they are seeing.

> You are assuming that decision makers are dumb That's only a single aspect, whilst it's also a very wide aspect. They may not be dumb, they may be "politically smart" and their KPIs are easiest to meet when their subordinates are in the office. They may not be dumb, but they feel less powerful (and therefore that their position as decision maker is more vulnerable) when their workforce is outside of whipping distan…

The "best of the best" places are also managed by feel and not data. There's even some kind of rationalization for that: at a sufficiently high management level, they have to make a decision every 30 seconds on average. That's mostly gut-driven by necessity...

Thing is, that normally works out, but large shifts like the "new normal" during the pandemic can take a while for the gut to pick up, and so the default is to get back to the known-good state...

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#179

Post by tylerag »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #107
deathanatos wrote: post #73

What's worse to me is the return to the "hybrid" office we keep getting threatened with. (My company has not actually done a RTO … yet. I don't know if we ever will.) Now instead of a lousy 4' desk in an open office plan … I also get a desk that isn't mine? I'm supposed to … what, lug a keyboard¹ & mouse & laptop in? It seems like literally nobody has imagined what it might be like for a SWE to actually attempt to do…

An external keyboard and mouse is a necessity for any non-emergency work. 100% of laptop keyboards and trackpads suck for anything other than emergencies, and many suck for emergencies as well. This is inarguable fact.

I won't argue with you, but I will ask how many laptops have you tried?

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#180

Post by fmajid »

abduhl wrote: post #76
jupp0r wrote: post #57

Companies who mandate return to the office should pay employees for the additional commute time at their hourly rate. If this becomes too expensive then productivity gains from being in the office are apparently not worth it.

Careful with this kind of demand. It’s possible that companies may pay the office workers their increased rate simply by reducing pay to remote workers.

They will do that anyway, by offshoring fully remote jobs. There will be a minority of very high-level experts who will be able to dictate their terms, as indeed happened even before Covid, but the vast majority will not.
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