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Plastics are poisoning us

newyorker.com

51–60 of 528 posts

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And of course if it doesn't help people who are currently alive only our children we should never do it and it's too late to bother?

Plastic replacement isn’t like leaded gasoline or ozone-depleting substances where you had just a few applications to design alternatives for. It’s in fucking everything. Even just finding a realistic replacement for plastic in shoes is not being productized seriously. It’s going to take generations for it to be fixed, and it probably won’t happen until humans and other animals get much much sicker.

>Even just finding a realistic replacement for plastic in shoes is not being productized seriously.

We can just go back to the material we used to use for shoes: leather. If there isn't enough cow skin for shoes for 8 billion people, we can just vastly increase the amount of cow farming we do. Oh wait...

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#52

People consider it a shocking or impossible policy to ban single use plastics, but future generations will look back on plastics the same way we do at lead paint or asbestos. We're poisoning ourselves and our planet.

> future generations will look back on plastics the same way we do at lead paint or asbestos

Only if there is an alternative, which doesn't exist at the moment. And no, plastics are way less dangerous than lead point or asbestos, its main problem is its sheer quantity.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#53

The study found that, to have a lower environmental impact than a plastic bag, a paper bag would have to be used forty-three times and a cotton tote would have to be used an astonishing seventy-one hundred times. “How many of those bags will last that long?” Franklin-Wallis asks. Walker-Franklin and Jambeck also note that exchanging plastic for other materials may involve “tradeoffs,” including “energy and water use…

It's very responsible of the New Yorker to bring this up. For individual studies it definitely depends on how "environmental impact" is defined.

For example, looking at only GHG emissions, you'd have to use a ceramic mug 500 times (without breaking it!) before the GHG emissions of creating the mug was less than the GHG emissions of creating 500 styrofoam cups. That's because a styrofoam cup is 99% air and merely contains 4.4 grams of plastic (about 4mL of volume before it's foamed up and pumped full of gas). Whereas a ceramic mug weighs 200-400 grams. Just kilning the 400g of the mug to dry the clay uses a lot of energy / creates a lot of GHG emissions, compared to processing 4 grams of plastic.

However, GHG emission is just one part of styrofoams environmental impact. The ceramic mug can be crushed up and essentially become part of clay again. The styrofoam just ... never decomposes. The styrofoam contains (and literally is itself) an endocrine disruptor -- so even as it does "decompose" it pollutes the environment with itself and other chemical additives in the polymer. The styrofoam is likely to contaminate your food as well, especially when restaurants put hot food in it and it melts small holes in the styrofoam box, or when kids chew on the styrofoam cups. But then, ceramic mugs may have various harmful metals in them or toxic chemicals/metals in its paint and glaze.

Basically, it's very, very important for us to start doing full hazard and lifecycle analyses of the materials we use at large scales. Overall, I think we're currently greatly underestimating the hazards of most of the newer modern materials. I also think the energy requirements to switch back to traditional materials would be untenable -- and still require ubiquitous quality control to minimize harmful heavy metals / etc in the raw materials.

But I think anyone who says "well it's just too hard then, forge ahead!" is terribly misguided or callous. And most people who say "we need to go back to metal/paper/wood/glass for everything!" needs to be fully prepared to describe to listeners/readers how that would affect daily habits -- you'd have to bring your own $5 drinking vessel to Starbucks because there probably wouldn't be a "to-go" cup available without petrochemical-based cups. I don't think everyone who pontificates on this is a hypocrite -- many of them do advocate for reducing consumption above all else. It's just a very hard sell.

But we don't have any roadmap at all for taking these contaminants out of the environment once they disperse throughout it.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#54

I became a minimist to save the planet as much as i could. Its easier than any one could think you know. Here is what i have been doing for a decade and would receommend 1. Reusing plastic bags (i love cotton bags but not ideal). Fold and keep one or two in your pocket before you leave home 2. Support and use light software so you dont need to upgrade your gadgets (12y laptop i use) 3. Prepare and eat home cooked mea…

What also important in what you do to minimize personal footprint, is that you influence others by sharing it

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess not for drinking. OP is planting trees, so assumably has land where some kind of forestry/agriculture is in being carried out. That needs quite some water. (eg. freshly planted trees need irrigation to have a fair chance of survival) Also washing, showering can be done with rainwater if you are really a minimalist.

Or at least car/patio washing if you’re almost really a minimalist.

You shouldn't be washing your car in the driveway. Even if you use environmentally friendly soap, or no soap, the water coming of the car isn't exactly clean.

Professional car wash places are required (depending on location) to collect and dispose of their waste water in a safe way. When you wash the car in the driveway, the waste water will either go into the ground or the storm drains, neither of which will ensure that the waster is cleaned before reentering the environment.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 8. Carry a water bottle (copper ideal). Why is copper better than stainless steel?

> Is it safe to drink water from copper bottle everyday? > If you have been drinking water that has been constantly stored in copper bottle or vessel, chances are high that you might be at the risk of copper toxicity. It can cause severe nausea, dizziness, abdominal pain and can result in liver and kidney failure. No thank you. I get the struggle to not use plastics, I try to avoid it myself too (especially buying wa…

Nothing happened to stainless steel bottles, they're available. About twice as heavy as a plastic bottle, when empty that is. Full it's more like 900g vs 750g.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#57
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 5. Collect rain water and/or use less water Not sure about that -- With modern pollution rain water is not likely to be safe to drink (depends on your location) > 9. fuck sugary drinks Massive yes! Amazing for your own health too.

> With modern pollution rain water is not likely to be safe to drink (depends on your location) There are lots of "grey water" uses that don't require drinkable water, like watering plants, flushing toilets.

>There are lots of "grey water" uses that don't require drinkable water, like watering plants, flushing toilets.

Yes. I've heard/read grey mentioned many times in permaculture articles.

I like the fact that permaculture takes a systems or holistic approach.

Another nice, small but useful example of permaculture design is the concept of guilds, when it comes to planting crops around a house.

They plant by category, in concentric bands called guilds, with the guild nearest to the house having most commonly used plants such as herbs, then vegetables, then grains, then fruit trees, etc.

So you have to walk less to tend to or harvest them.

Edit: I may have used the term "guild" incorrectly.

The Wikipedia article on permaculture uses it differently, under the section "Guilds".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_(ecology)

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#58
post #46

The study found that, to have a lower environmental impact than a plastic bag, a paper bag would have to be used forty-three times and a cotton tote would have to be used an astonishing seventy-one hundred times. “How many of those bags will last that long?” Franklin-Wallis asks. Walker-Franklin and Jambeck also note that exchanging plastic for other materials may involve “tradeoffs,” including “energy and water use…

I inherited my fabric shopping bags from my grandmother, she made some of them 30 years ago. They are also many times thicker than the cotton bags you can buy in stores, so they might very well need another couple generations before they are carbon neutral!

Yeah much of the problem is that people aren't currently willing to change their lifestyle to embrace the "reduce" and "reuse" part of "reduce, reuse, recycle" triad. They only know two options: "Paper or plastic?" because the vast majority of people don't want to bring their own bags from home to the store. Or their own cup to Starbucks. Or their own to-go food box to the pizza place.

I'm trying to imagine how DoorDash would even work without single-use plastics? Maybe we'd have standardized reusable containers with deposits on them that could be returned to a central location for $1-2 refunds per container, where they'd get sanitized and re-distributed via restaurant supply companies.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#59
post #2

Yes? At this point, it's hopeless - plastics are expanding like never before, Shell expanding several new enormous factories right in the US. No politician is interested in stopping it either, since the lobbying industry for plastics is also going strong. The only legislation passed in modern time is against single-use plastics, which is just a tiny drop in the ocean (!!) of plastic. And also, the clothes industry is…

"In the end, it's up to consumers."

No it's not. Please don't spread sinister pro industry falsities like this. Nothing has ever changed because of some symbolic drops in the ocean.

Regulation and collective action is the only thing that has ever worked, all personal lifestyle choices are romanticizations about personal effects that the industry loves because it has pushed responsibility to consumers, like much of the astroturfed recycling movement that is theatre hiding actual policy making.

If people want to do anything that makes any kind of actual difference they should get into anything that's anti the big industry lobbies or collective action and see through the jungle of astroturfing and "lifestyle signaling" greenwashing noise.

Re: Plastics are poisoning us

#60

It's a lot about recycling and very little about how it's poisoning human beings. I have a lot of unpopular opinions about plastic. I personally think it's not that big of a deal. Benzine compounds are naaty, but they're in your drinking water. I don't like them. But most plastic is organic compounds since it comes from oil. There are already microbes metabolizing it in the wild, and it's a rich energy source that mo…

> But most plastic is organic compounds since it comes from oil.

It being an organic compound doesn't mean it's safe or something we should ignore. Asbestos is an organic compound with wildly useful properties.

> Additionally, I think there's too much of an aversion to burning it.

At home, its a terrible idea - it's super duper toxic a d leave a horrific nasty waste to dispose of. In a commercial setting maybe, but I'm not convinced it's going to be handled correctly without serious regulation.

> And all that said, I'd bet money I dispose of significantly less plastic than the average European. First is water bottles. I don't do water bottles. I use those 5 gallon jugs and a hand pump dispenser on amazon, it works like a super soaker or a garden sprayer. That alone has me ahead of most Americans.

Eh, are you comparing to Europeans or Americans? I don't have stats handy but tap water is potable and suitable for a large number of uses. No need for any plastic.

> Avoiding single use plastic in your household is not really all that hard, things you can't avoid like linings in cans and what not aren't the problem, grocery bags and water bottles are the big ones, and you can do other things like never buy teflon, which I also do.

You can't just decide the plastics that you use aren't the problem. Avoiding single use plastics might not be hard for you, I live within shopping distance of 3 supermarkets all of whom package most of their fruit and veg in single use plastics. That's my number one source of plastics, and there's nothing I can do about it.

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