The damaging results of mandated return to office • Hacker News Board

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#31

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

lobstrosity420 wrote: post #23

diego_moita wrote: post #19

I wish we stopped with the "companies should do this/should do that". Existing big companies are too comfortable and lazy for the remote work revolution. Remote work is a radical change in culture and work organization. It will take new companies with new workflows and organizational ideas to make it work well. We're not there yet. Managers don't understand yet how to do it, they need to read a lot of documentation (…

> Walkable, safe and cheap places with good internet have a lot to gain (e.g. Portugal, Thailand) Why do the people living in those cities feel so strongly that this isn't the case[1]? How does the city administration deal with skyrocketing rents? [1] https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/05/12/proto-gentrifies-...

[deleted]

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#32

Post by CtrlAltDelete51 » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:04 AM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #25

diego_moita wrote: post #19

I wish we stopped with the "companies should do this/should do that". Existing big companies are too comfortable and lazy for the remote work revolution. Remote work is a radical change in culture and work organization. It will take new companies with new workflows and organizational ideas to make it work well. We're not there yet. Managers don't understand yet how to do it, they need to read a lot of documentation (…

Except almost all white-collar offices (in the US at least) went remote during the first 2-3 years of COVID. Most did so successfully. Yet, many now want to return to traditional office work with little evidence that’s a better way to work.

You have a source for any of that?

Speaking personally, everyone I’ve spoken to on the matter (myself included) have zero desire to return to a traditional office.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#33

Post by bee_rider » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:09 AM UTC

diego_moita wrote: post #19

I wish we stopped with the "companies should do this/should do that". Existing big companies are too comfortable and lazy for the remote work revolution. Remote work is a radical change in culture and work organization. It will take new companies with new workflows and organizational ideas to make it work well. We're not there yet. Managers don't understand yet how to do it, they need to read a lot of documentation (…

The combination of a bigger remote talent pool and enhanced productivity with AI tools is going to make it pretty rough for mediocre programmers in the medium term, I think.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#34

Post by losteric » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:11 AM UTC

CtrlAltDelete51 wrote: post #32

alistairSH wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except almost all white-collar offices (in the US at least) went remote during the first 2-3 years of COVID. Most did so successfully. Yet, many now want to return to traditional office work with little evidence that’s a better way to work.

You have a source for any of that? Speaking personally, everyone I’ve spoken to on the matter (myself included) have zero desire to return to a traditional office.

Are you referring to individual employees or the companies? Clearly many companies are mandating RTO despite remote/self-determined hybrid supported by a strong majority of employee sentiment (and often performance data)

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#35

Post by losteric » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:14 AM UTC

lobstrosity420 wrote: post #23

diego_moita wrote: post #19

I wish we stopped with the "companies should do this/should do that". Existing big companies are too comfortable and lazy for the remote work revolution. Remote work is a radical change in culture and work organization. It will take new companies with new workflows and organizational ideas to make it work well. We're not there yet. Managers don't understand yet how to do it, they need to read a lot of documentation (…

> Walkable, safe and cheap places with good internet have a lot to gain (e.g. Portugal, Thailand) Why do the people living in those cities feel so strongly that this isn't the case[1]? How does the city administration deal with skyrocketing rents? [1] https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/05/12/proto-gentrifies-...

Skyrocketing rent demonstrates the strong demand for such environments. Prices would fall if there were more competitive cities.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#36

Post by ghiculescu » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:15 AM UTC

jeconst wrote: post #11

"Unispace finds that nearly half (42%) of companies that mandated office returns witnessed a higher level of employee attrition than they had anticipated. And almost a third (29%) of companies enforcing office returns are struggling with recruitment. Imagine that — nearly half!" Does this mean that 58% of companies that mandated a return underestimated attrition? And 71% are doing fine with recruitment?

Sounds like return to office mandates correlate with less attrition and easier recruitment…

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#37

Post by Uehreka » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:22 AM UTC

diego_moita wrote: post #19

I wish we stopped with the "companies should do this/should do that". Existing big companies are too comfortable and lazy for the remote work revolution. Remote work is a radical change in culture and work organization. It will take new companies with new workflows and organizational ideas to make it work well. We're not there yet. Managers don't understand yet how to do it, they need to read a lot of documentation (…

…what?

Sorry to harsh the vibe, but that second paragraph reads like something out of 2014 when people were first reading REMOTE. At this point remote work is nothing new, and while many large companies don’t like it, many large companies are going along with it (and developing the culture, documentation, etc.) because it works well as a way to attract talent. And some startup founders are trying to go “full Musk” and call workers’ bluffs and cement their control, so I don’t think there’s a clean dichotomy here.

As for walkable cities, I agree that they would be awesome, but they do not just naturally flow from a remote work culture. And having lived in Thailand for two years I hard disagree about it being a walkable place with good internet (it is cheap, which is nice, but you don’t get what you don’t pay for).

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#38

Post by Aerroon » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:23 AM UTC

diego_moita wrote: post #19

I wish we stopped with the "companies should do this/should do that". Existing big companies are too comfortable and lazy for the remote work revolution. Remote work is a radical change in culture and work organization. It will take new companies with new workflows and organizational ideas to make it work well. We're not there yet. Managers don't understand yet how to do it, they need to read a lot of documentation (…

>Walkable, safe and cheap places with good internet have a lot to gain (e.g. Portugal, Thailand). Unsafe or expensive cities have a lot to loose (e.g. San Francisco).

Won't this be a large obstacle for remote work? More expensive places are going to hold on to people tooth and nail. There are plenty of ways to do this, eg explicit regulation or tax complications.

When Bulgarian truck drivers started outcompeting French truck drivers the EU pushed through new regulations that required the drivers and the trucks (!!) to visit their home country at least every 2 months.[0]

>The most controversial measure is an obligation for trucks to return to their country of establishment at least every eight weeks

I think political entities will fight a lot with dirty tricks like this to keep the tax revenue and employment in their jurisdiction.

[0] https://www.politico.eu/article/trucker-rules-europe-logisti...

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#39

Post by kpw94 » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:33 AM UTC

lobstrosity420 wrote: post #23

diego_moita wrote: post #19

I wish we stopped with the "companies should do this/should do that". Existing big companies are too comfortable and lazy for the remote work revolution. Remote work is a radical change in culture and work organization. It will take new companies with new workflows and organizational ideas to make it work well. We're not there yet. Managers don't understand yet how to do it, they need to read a lot of documentation (…

> Walkable, safe and cheap places with good internet have a lot to gain (e.g. Portugal, Thailand) Why do the people living in those cities feel so strongly that this isn't the case[1]? How does the city administration deal with skyrocketing rents? [1] https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/05/12/proto-gentrifies-...

The solution is a local inflation:

You have to raise everyone's wages, prices, etc until there's an equilibrium (finally too expensive for digital nomads? no more rising rent prices). But it's not something that can be done easily/overnight.

This is how these places would have "a lot to gain". If it's just rent prices going up, the nomads & the local landlords are the only one benefiting and everyone else is upset.

Re: The damaging results of mandated return to office

#40

Post by m1117 » Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:33 AM UTC

I think companies should be inclusive, and bring people to the office. Because people who don't like working from home will feel excluded when they're lonely in the office.