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Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

cnn.com

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Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#81

Post by ericd »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #73
GiorgioG wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who isn't sold on EVs (as they exist today), I just don't how EVs will wind up being better economically. Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs. Worse, costs for all electricity (home, industry, etc) will go up as demand surges. My ICE vehicle won't lose range like an EV's will over time.…

> Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs. Be careful to not think inside a bubble. There are a LOT of cars on the road that are over 20 years old. ICE cars being bought today are going to be on the road 20+ years from now. It's going to be a long time before the majority of cars sold are electric, an…

Is it even most ev owners that are on 240V? We’ve been on a normal 120V 15 amp the entire time we’ve had one, and it’s been fine, because it sits there for 14-16 hours most days. We actually have a Tesla wall charger just sitting on the ground, never installed, because we haven’t really needed it.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#82

Post by londons_explore »

asynchronous wrote: post #78
londons_explore wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't…

The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.

Over the air updates pay for themselves immediately if there is a recall that can be fixed with software. And thats ignoring any other possible benefits for the user, like upgraded features or bugfixes post-sale.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#83

Post by commandar »

kmeisthax wrote: post #66
stcroixx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing crappy work. Not sure if EV manufacturers are attempting to force consumers to have all their work done by dealers. If so, I’ll keep waiting.

So, part of the reason why EVs have struggled to gain a market is specifically because the dealers can't make as much money on the maintenance side. All the stuff about "range anxiety" and "charging infrastructure" was a sideshow. You already have a garage that can deliver 120VAC at 15A to your car and that is enough charging infrastructure for everything but road trips. Dealers wanted to sell cars with Sony timers[0…

> You already have a garage that can deliver 120VAC at 15A to your car

There are a lot of assumptions packed into this dismissal of concerns about charging availability.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#84

Post by mulmen »

sokoloff wrote: post #57
mulmen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has a differential and gearbox so it has oil.

On the LEAF, it’s an inspect-only item. There is no replacement interval specified.

My BMW transmission has no interval for the gear oil. It’s a “lifetime fluid”. It gets changed with the transmission.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#85

Post by 10u152 »

commandar wrote: post #83
kmeisthax wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, part of the reason why EVs have struggled to gain a market is specifically because the dealers can't make as much money on the maintenance side. All the stuff about "range anxiety" and "charging infrastructure" was a sideshow. You already have a garage that can deliver 120VAC at 15A to your car and that is enough charging infrastructure for everything but road trips. Dealers wanted to sell cars with Sony timers[0…

> You already have a garage that can deliver 120VAC at 15A to your car There are a lot of assumptions packed into this dismissal of concerns about charging availability.

There’s more people with a garage and a power outlet than there are people with a fuel bowser in their garage…

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#86

Post by jandrese »

danans wrote: post #29
NikolaNovak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird. Two decades ago I had a 2004 subaru that needed nothing first years. Then We got a 2015 Toyota rav 4 and every maintenance there was some up sell. Change a filter check the brakes resurface rotors change the atf or differential oil etc. We actually got into a dispute with dealer after third consecutive $300brakes maintenance. Thought maybe that was lemon car or bad dealer but now we have a honda odyssey a…

>U wonder about Ev - do they not have brakes, Cv joints, bearings, differentials (I know there's no transmission), et cetera? They have all those, but at least for brakes, they last much longer due to regen braking.

Electric cars do a lot of regenerative breaking so the brake pads last for thousands and thousands of miles. Even on hybrids it was pretty common for Priuses with 100,000 miles to still be on their factory pads.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#87

Post by jandrese »

scop wrote: post #42

I was speaking with the owner of an auto shop a few months back and he made an interesting point I hadn’t heard re Ford: whereas Tesla is eating new customers, Ford and other legacy automakers are having to eat their own customers…which can lead to some serious business complexity!

Yep, and there is always a business case for trying to suppress/ignore the new technology and stick with what you know and what has been profitable for many years. This is how once mighty businesses fail. Look at Sears, who was Amazon before anybody knew what the Internet was, but then the Internet appeared and they couldn't move on because they had invested too much in their old business model. Moving a catalog mail order business online should be an incredibly easy transition, but decade after decade they dawdled until it was too late because it would have hurt the stores and the quarterly profits.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#88

Post by jandrese »

qqtt wrote: post #45
gobins wrote: post #33

It's interesting that while other companies are doubling down on electric vehicles, Toyota has come out and said the opposite after being one of the first companies to start.

Toyota and Honda are both pushing more into electric cars these days. The main reason they are behind is that the Japanese government pushed hard to develop fuel cell cars and gave out big incentives for companies to put fuel cell vehicles on the road. This big push is why Honda and Toyota both have fuel cell options for customers to use on the road today, but they are both pretty behind on battery electric vehicles.

To be fair the Toyota CEO was also actively hostile to BEVs, sparing no opportunity to belittle them. But yeah, the years wasted on dead end fuel cell technology definitely hurt them.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#89

Post by jandrese »

bigyikes wrote: post #49
gobins wrote: post #33

It's interesting that while other companies are doubling down on electric vehicles, Toyota has come out and said the opposite after being one of the first companies to start.

Electric cars becoming dominant seems like an inevitability to me, and it looks like many auto makers agree. It’s “just” a matter of battery costs, battery density, energy costs, and volume. What does Toyota see that we’re missing? I ask this as someone who just bought an ICE vehicle, but only because there were no electric vehicles in my market segment.

> What does Toyota see that we’re missing?

A huge ICE vehicle construction infrastructure that they don't want to throw away.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#90

Post by jandrese »

jemmyw wrote: post #40
toomuchtodo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford Credit is what sells Ford vehicles, but it’s also where the profit is (roughly half of profits). Take away the credit biz, and that’s a material impact to both profits and volume. As the below article notes, it’s a balance and pushing risk around. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2020/0...

Does that mean if you buy a vehicle outright all those folks buying on credit are subsidising you?

Ford probably isn't selling you the vehicle for a loss, but you are contributing far less to the profit margin. In normal times dealers operate on fairly thin margins, which is why they're always looking for ways to extract extra cash from the customer. Financing is an amazing vehicle for this. But it's also why dealers are so interested in the window tint, undercoating, racing stripe, nitrogen filled tires, etc... add ons. Those are almost pure profit to the dealer and can account for the lion's share of what the dealer actually takes home.
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