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Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

cnn.com

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Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#71

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

vel0city wrote: post #54
ruffrey wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you test drive a car for an online dealer? Do they drive to your home and let you take it for a spin?

If they follow the Tesla/Rivian/Lucid model they'd have "galleries" which might have a few cars on hand to show off, see paint and fabric samples, hopefully have someone knowledgeable on hand to answer questions, and test drive but you then go place an order for a new one. There are a few Tesla galleries near me despite not being legal to be sold in my state.

Yup.

This model makes so much more sense than needing dealerships with hundreds of cars filling a massive parking lot.

You could have a showroom with a couple of your best looking models, then outside just have one of each model ready for a test drive. You decide you like one? You place an order and have it there in a couple weeks.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#72

Post by jayd16 »

stbenjam wrote: post #37
jayd16 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fans, belts, radiator, oil, (ironically) battery, (oil, fuel and intake) filters are eliminated. Bulbs, tires, alignment, washer fluid, cabin filters, and brake pads remain.

I’ve owned a few EV’s and they all have 12V batteries. The traction battery charges the 12V and it powers all the typical car power systems.

Ah hmm, I guess you're right. So just the alternator and starter are gone.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#73

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

GiorgioG wrote: post #61
bigyikes wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars becoming dominant seems like an inevitability to me, and it looks like many auto makers agree. It’s “just” a matter of battery costs, battery density, energy costs, and volume. What does Toyota see that we’re missing? I ask this as someone who just bought an ICE vehicle, but only because there were no electric vehicles in my market segment.

As someone who isn't sold on EVs (as they exist today), I just don't how EVs will wind up being better economically. Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs. Worse, costs for all electricity (home, industry, etc) will go up as demand surges. My ICE vehicle won't lose range like an EV's will over time.…

> Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs.

Be careful to not think inside a bubble. There are a LOT of cars on the road that are over 20 years old. ICE cars being bought today are going to be on the road 20+ years from now. It's going to be a long time before the majority of cars sold are electric, and even longer before most cars on the road are.

In that time, electric companies have plenty of time to ramp of electrical production.

Also, it's worth mentioning that the time most people will be charging is in the evening, when electricity usage is declining anyways. With time-of-use pricing, we could heavily incentivize charging to only occur in the dead of night when electricity usage is minimal.

The grid can handle it (Unless you're in Texas).

> Worse, costs for all electricity (home, industry, etc) will go up as demand surges.

Most people charging at home are using a 220 volt, 40-amp circuit, and charging at 32 amps. That's 7 kW. Most EV users will only need to charge for 0-3 hours/day. Overall, it doesn't represent a very large increase in electricity usage. Back when I was driving 300 miles/week, my car charging was only ~15% of my electric bill.

> My ICE vehicle won't lose range like an EV's will over time. Nor, will it need an expensive battery to be replaced.

Unless you bought one of those shitty first-gen Leafs with the sub-90-mile battery that didn't have cooling, battery degradation isn't a concern. Yes, it happens, but it's VERY slow. About 15% after 150,000 miles. If I've gone that far, I'm more likely to be interested in buying a new car than replacing just the battery.

Besides, isn't it common for ICE vehicles to lose fuel economy over time as some parts wear out?

> [...power outage...]

Yeah, there's a fair point about being able to store "range" in a can. But...meh. Not worried about it. In the over 20 years I've been driving, it's only been an issue once, and it was because I was stupid.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#74

Post by jdeibele »

bigyikes wrote: post #49
gobins wrote: post #33

It's interesting that while other companies are doubling down on electric vehicles, Toyota has come out and said the opposite after being one of the first companies to start.

Electric cars becoming dominant seems like an inevitability to me, and it looks like many auto makers agree. It’s “just” a matter of battery costs, battery density, energy costs, and volume. What does Toyota see that we’re missing? I ask this as someone who just bought an ICE vehicle, but only because there were no electric vehicles in my market segment.

I would have said that Japan was not great for solar but surprisingly (to me) they have almost 20X more solar energy produced than wind.

Renewable sources of electricity would seem to be solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, biomass, and nuclear. According to https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/japan-can-achieve-90... 24% of their energy is renewable today and they're planning on significantly boosting nuclear.

76% of their energy comes from gas and oil from other countries. Toyota and other Japanese manufacturers seemed to focus on their domestic market, meaning hybrids or ICE vehicles instead of EVs. Electric vehicles are becoming drastically more popular in the US and Europe.

Toyota talks about how the battery requirements of 1 EV could be used for a dozen hybrids. And they're right. But it's also besides the point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Japan

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#75

Post by m463 »

pengaru wrote: post #25
m463 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep on reading that electric vehicles require less maintenance, but they still require some maintenance, and lots of things continue to break. how much maintenance does a honda ice car really require? Most of them run flawlessly for years and years, almost without opening the hood at all. I wonder how the numbers break down?

If Tesla is any indication, they'll be chock full of unnecessary complex gimmicks that will constantly break and need servicing. I once helped someone with a flat tire in a Model S who had zip ties dangling from every door handle. The "present mechanism" had failed in every door, look it up, it's a known problem of wire fatigue caused by the present mechanism's repetitive movement breaking the door handle. Imagine ow…

Thought I should mention my experience:

- 2 door handles broken.

- the door panels have been opened so many times, now they are perpetually loose and the door closes with a weird sound.

- driver floor mats came loose multiple times.

- one rear drive motor failure. (note that apart from tesla claims, two drive motors does NOT mean you can continue the trip on the remaining one)

- 4 flat tires - no spare, so each one ended up requiring a flatbed. Tesla's roadside assistance is rarely timely. Actually any roadside assitance. (I'm ordering a cheater spare)

- rear defrost wires most don't heat.

- touchscreen developed bubbles

- front spoiler broke

- rear ultrasonic sensor fell inside bumper

now the warranty expired, and of course a third door handle broke.

Also, be careful of what you wish for. they seem to minimize "unnecessary complex gimmicks" by removing controls. That means everything goes on the touchscreen and you become a terrible driver because you cannot control your car easily.

Really, tesla needs decent dedicated controls with honda attention to detail and reliability.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#76

Post by coredog64 »

abakker wrote: post #39
jjtheblunt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't Ford, unlike GM and Chrysler, NOT a recipient of bailout "too big to fail" federal money?

yes, but it was more circumstantial. by lucky happenstance they had arrange a significant loan facility almost directly before the financial crisis. they leveraged this heavily but because the financing had been arranged ahead of time it left them more sound. Ultimately, the other vehicle makers just got loans from the government post-hoc.

The Ford family are significant shareholders. The “No dividends” clause of the bailouts would have hit them hard. If they hadn’t timed it well with the pre-GFC loan, it’s likely they would have tried harder not to take the bailout regardless.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#77

Post by throwaway5959 »

sundvor wrote: post #56
cubefox wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is: Combustion motors are amazingly complex and highly optimized beasts, while electric motors are dead simple. There isn't much to improve. So there are not many people working on electric motors.

Nor servicing them, further down the line.

That’s a feature for the end customer, not a bug. I honestly think it’s the biggest reason Toyota is so anti-EV. It’s a lot easier to make a reliable EV than an ICE car.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#78

Post by asynchronous »

londons_explore wrote: post #43
stcroixx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing crappy work. Not sure if EV manufacturers are attempting to force consumers to have all their work done by dealers. If so, I’ll keep waiting.

Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't…

The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#79

Post by sokoloff »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #73
GiorgioG wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who isn't sold on EVs (as they exist today), I just don't how EVs will wind up being better economically. Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs. Worse, costs for all electricity (home, industry, etc) will go up as demand surges. My ICE vehicle won't lose range like an EV's will over time.…

> Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs. Be careful to not think inside a bubble. There are a LOT of cars on the road that are over 20 years old. ICE cars being bought today are going to be on the road 20+ years from now. It's going to be a long time before the majority of cars sold are electric, an…

> isn't it common for ICE vehicles to lose fuel economy over time as some parts wear out?

Technically yes, but it’s significantly less than the range degradation on even the best electric vehicles.

Re: Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

#80

Post by asynchronous »

stbenjam wrote: post #37
jayd16 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fans, belts, radiator, oil, (ironically) battery, (oil, fuel and intake) filters are eliminated. Bulbs, tires, alignment, washer fluid, cabin filters, and brake pads remain.

I’ve owned a few EV’s and they all have 12V batteries. The traction battery charges the 12V and it powers all the typical car power systems.

While Teslas are required to have a 12v due to federal regulation they do not to my knowledge require any checking or maintenance. They’re basically unused in the car, you can’t even get to them without removing stuff.
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