Earlier quoted context omitted.
In a multilingual world where we know that we all type at high speed on various devices, it stuns me when people still nit-pick on spelling errors. It's juvenile.
Up to a certain point it's not much of an issue, but I had to re-read several sentences and I'm fairly capable of following written text. It's also an accessibility thing, screen-readers and dyslexics might have trouble interpreting the text. I support bringing it up when it's frequent enough to cause frustration. Putting some effort once into the writing - typing correction occurs almost effortlessly on almost any d…
Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
91–100 of 100 posts
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#92I own a carbon fiber design & manufacturing shop that does aerospace and undersea work. Watched the video by "Just Alex" and the section the bonding of the titanium end-caps and the cylinder absolutely gave me the creeps. The video was absolutely right to mention lack of dust-free environment (vs open warehouse), lack of temperature control, and lack of degassing equipment. We also have no idea about the properties o…
Would you expect carbon fiber to actually do anything useful in compression?
I fail to see how what is essentially magic string does anything helpful in the case of a submarine hull. It's the opposite of most applications, where the carbon fibers are in tension.
The only compressive strength I can see is from the matrix the fibers were embedded in, and given all the things you've noted... that's going to be way below optimum, and there are going to be voids for crack formation everywhere.
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#93Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
Off topic: do you not use a spell-checker?
In a multilingual world where we know that we all type at high speed on various devices, it stuns me when people still nit-pick on spelling errors. It's juvenile.
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Up to a certain point it's not much of an issue, but I had to re-read several sentences and I'm fairly capable of following written text. It's also an accessibility thing, screen-readers and dyslexics might have trouble interpreting the text. I support bringing it up when it's frequent enough to cause frustration. Putting some effort once into the writing - typing correction occurs almost effortlessly on almost any d…
Honestly, I am a bit embarassed by my post. In my defence, it was never supossed to by that long, not even half of what it turned out to be... And it was late, I was tired and I simply shouldn't write long texts on mobile to begin with...
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#96I own a carbon fiber design & manufacturing shop that does aerospace and undersea work. Watched the video by "Just Alex" and the section the bonding of the titanium end-caps and the cylinder absolutely gave me the creeps. The video was absolutely right to mention lack of dust-free environment (vs open warehouse), lack of temperature control, and lack of degassing equipment. We also have no idea about the properties o…
>I own a carbon fiber design & manufacturing shop that does aerospace and undersea work. Would you expect carbon fiber to actually do anything useful in compression ? I fail to see how what is essentially magic string does anything helpful in the case of a submarine hull. It's the opposite of most applications, where the carbon fibers are in tension. The only compressive strength I can see is from the matrix the fibe…
I'd certainly be VERY skeptical of a compression design until it was THOROUGHLY TESTED not only on the bench but in real-world scenarios.
In fact, fiberglass often has better compressive strength and we sometimes add fiberglass outer layers for that purpose, where there is local compressive load.
>>most applications, where the carbon fibers are in tension.
Exactly!
Carbon fibers are astonishing in tension. They take a point load and spread it out through large distances of matrix. Aligning it with tension or bending loads we can make amazing lightweight things.
The matrix is indeed the weak point and the and the shear between layers and between strands is the key failure mode I'm always trying to overcome or evade. Check out this 2min vid on the ASTM Open Hole Compression test [0]; it'll tell you a lot.
I'm not saying that carbon fiber composites are weak in compression, they are actually quite good. But the compression area is usually the point of failure.
The real failure mechanism goes back to the matrix failing between the fibers or layers. A great example was from one product we made using cored construction, an oblate carbon fiber tube with a structural foam core. The goal was to be substantially lighter than aluminum. The standard for that bar was 700 Lbs of load. Our structure was half the weight of the equivalent weight of aluminum, and didn't crack until 1200 Lbs of load. But what cracked was the top layer, in compression. The cool thing was that the rest of the structure held together at much higher loads, because basically the crushed upper load bearing surface was now suspended by the lower carbon fiber in tension, like a hammock.
There is no such opportunity with that sub — the core is the air and the gooey humans inside.
More importantly, the kinds of failure that happen in excess flexion and compression are cumulative.
A key advantage but also very tricky point is that carbon fiber composites do not have the kind of fatigue that metal does. A homogeneous metal still has grain structure, so if it is repeatedly flexed and never approaches the yield point, such as on an airplane wing, micro-cracks will grow and it will eventually fail (they know how to do inspections for this).
Carbon fiber composites with long-chain polymer matrices can flex nearly forever, as long as it never exceeds the yield point at any microscopic point. However, exceed that point, the matrix gets a micro-crack. Those micro-cracks WILL add up, and will accelerate because the entire trick of composites is for the reinforcement carbon fibers to spread the load through the matrix. That failed point of the matrix now no longer contributes to the load-bearing. So, all the other points take the load, and another will fail. This process will accelerate.
The thing is, these failure points can be detected by ultrasound or X-ray examination, but typically not visually, whereas metal fatigue shows up on the surface, especially with the right kinds of paint and/or dyes, so inspection can be easy.
Perhaps most fatally in this catastrophe, is that failure in carbon fiber composites is not gradual or ductile. Metals will show signs of weakness a good amount of time before the failure, and when it fails will tend to bend, not fracture. Carbon composites will fail almost explosively and catastrophically; again, see the ASTM video, the failure at 1:48 is totally typical.
I am actually surprised to read that James Cameron heard from his sources that the Titan crew had dumped their weights and were ascending, trying to manage an emergency. If that was the sensors signalling cracks, I'd expect only milliseconds between the first micro-crack and the catastrophic failure. It seems they had at least seconds, possibly due to the unusually large 5" thick layup.
I could keep going, but yes, you are on the right track.
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suspect their end goal was to sell deep sea subs to the oil and gas industry, and this was a testbed.
Why would you do that manned instead of using remote control? I'm assuming your engineering requirements for an unmanned sub would be substantially easier for a number of reasons (not needing to worry about killing someone, mainly).
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think you're missing anything. Others, including those in-the-know, were left scratching their heads too. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/us/oceangate-titanic-miss... > Years before OceanGate’s submersible craft went missing in the Atlantic Ocean with five people onboard, the company faced several warnings as it prepared for its hallmark mission of taking wealthy passengers to tour the Titanic’s wreckage.…
My question is just... why? It's not like carbon fiber was any cheaper than just making the thing out of steel or titanium like literally every other submersible. It just doesn't make any sense. You have none of the weight penalties that exist in aviation, so the heavier and the thicker the better.
Well, they were kind of proud [0] of buying carbon fiber from Boeing with a steep discount due to it being too old for aviation use, so maybe it was cheaper than steel or titanium, even if carbon fiber in general would not be.
[0] long before the accident; I doubt anyone at OceanGate would brag about that now.
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#99> From all available sources, it is apparent that the viewport was designed and certified down to a depth of 1300 meters, not 4000 meters. Wow. What kind of hubris could look past that huge red flag? Apparently the kind that thinks it is interesting that it deforms by several inches and not scary
The same kind that is proud of saving money by buying carbon fiber for the craft at a significant discount from Boeing because it is surplus that is too old to be considered safe for aviation use, says “safety is pure waste”, etc.
Re: Engineering assessment of the OceanGate Titan failure
#100Sure, titanium or appropriate steel would be more expensive, but it's hard for me to imagine that we're talking about an amount of money that would simply make the project unprofitable, since there are plenty of other submersibles out there built without carbon fiber hulls, and those companies are making money. Even if we were talking about a difference of some hundreds of thousands of dollars (can't imagine it would be more) between the two materials, we're still talking about life-or-death here (and one of those lives was Rush's). And while obviously the overhead costs of operating a submersible business are very high, these customers are paying $250k/dive. It seems like if Rush had said to people, "We went with ti over carbon, which would have saved money, but now we can be much more sure that the material won't fail catastrophically," anyone with that kind of money would have been happy to pay an extra, say, $10k or $20k or $50k/dive to make sure that they didn't die.
My take on the situation is that the money was less important in his calculus than the ego aspect of wanting to be seen as a maverick and showing the rest of the sub engineering community that he was right against their conventional wisdom. Being seen an 'innovator' seems to have been a powerful motivation for Rush. Often the actual amount of money matters much less to people than the 'animal spirits' (to use Keyne's phrase) underlying those decisions. Maybe I'm just trying to give Rush the benefit of the doubt, since putting people's lives at risk just so he could further enrich himself (and it doesn't seem like we're talking here about a guy that could barely afford lunch) is just evil. Maybe he was greedy and cheap (which doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't have a lot of good qualities).
Thoughts? I'd love to see someone run the numbers.