France: All your books are belong to us • Hacker News Board

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#11

Post by aevodor » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 4:16 PM UTC

nmcfarl wrote: post #6

I would really like to see a sane analysis of this law. From this article it could merely require registering your copyright to use it, if it's more than a decade old. Which I personally would consider a sane way out of the current mess when it comes to finding someone to pay when remixing, resampling and quoting outside of fair use. However given the opponents this probably isn't the case. But this article gives us…

I recommend this in-depth analysis (in French, published on Feb 19): http://scinfolex.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/oeuvres-orphelines... (Creative Commons license, with attribution).

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#12

Post by Jun8 » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 4:34 PM UTC

ggchappell wrote: post #4

I'm not clear on what's supposed to be so bad about this law. The article fails to explain that the intent of the law is to deal with the problem of orphaned works. It creates a process whereby out-of-print works can have have their copyright seized by the state, in order to make them available in digital form. Out-of-print works with a copyright date prior to 2001 are to be entered into a publicly available list. Li…

This in is essence exactly the argument that Google Books is using so copy/paste all the arguments against that (the French were particularly vocal) to see the problem.

If I had to choose between the government (French, US, whatever) and Google doing such a thing, I would definitely choose an entity like Google on the grounds that since they stand to make money and have a stake, they'll manage it better than a typical government can.

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#13

Post by loceng » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 4:47 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #12

ggchappell wrote: post #4

I'm not clear on what's supposed to be so bad about this law. The article fails to explain that the intent of the law is to deal with the problem of orphaned works. It creates a process whereby out-of-print works can have have their copyright seized by the state, in order to make them available in digital form. Out-of-print works with a copyright date prior to 2001 are to be entered into a publicly available list. Li…

This in is essence exactly the argument that Google Books is using so copy/paste all the arguments against that (the French were particularly vocal) to see the problem. If I had to choose between the government (French, US, whatever) and Google doing such a thing, I would definitely choose an entity like Google on the grounds that since they stand to make money and have a stake, they'll manage it better than a typica…

France plans things pretty well in comparison (at least on outwardly views) compared to the US. I realize you said based on a typical government. There are negatives to a for-profit company doing things as well, where if something that could be developed would be beneficial to usefulness to users - but perhaps would hurt the profitable, then it likely wouldn't get implemented.

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#14

Post by bryanlarsen » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 4:52 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #12

ggchappell wrote: post #4

I'm not clear on what's supposed to be so bad about this law. The article fails to explain that the intent of the law is to deal with the problem of orphaned works. It creates a process whereby out-of-print works can have have their copyright seized by the state, in order to make them available in digital form. Out-of-print works with a copyright date prior to 2001 are to be entered into a publicly available list. Li…

This in is essence exactly the argument that Google Books is using so copy/paste all the arguments against that (the French were particularly vocal) to see the problem. If I had to choose between the government (French, US, whatever) and Google doing such a thing, I would definitely choose an entity like Google on the grounds that since they stand to make money and have a stake, they'll manage it better than a typica…

The difference between a corporation and a government is that the corporation has a clear conflict of interest. Also, keep in mind that French governmental organizations are typically less dysfunctional than American ones.

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#15

Post by bryanlarsen » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 4:56 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #10

davweb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "collective management organisations" set up to manage this will be paying royalties to authors, something they wouldn't get if their books were made public domain. Similarly, an author can assert their rights and ask for a republished book to be removed from sale, something which would not be possible if works were made public domains. I'm not saying this a good idea, just that this is why they're not just remov…

> The "collective management organisations" set up to manage this will be paying royalties to authors, something they wouldn't get if their books were made public domain. To me it looks like the incentives are not really in place for that. 1) If the authors are already present, registered, in touch, etc... they're already getting paid. 2) If the authors "can't be found", the big bureaucracy gets to keep the cash. Ita…

Remember their are also publishers in the mix. Hopefully all of the payments for out-of-print books are going to the authors only.

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#16

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #14

Jun8 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This in is essence exactly the argument that Google Books is using so copy/paste all the arguments against that (the French were particularly vocal) to see the problem. If I had to choose between the government (French, US, whatever) and Google doing such a thing, I would definitely choose an entity like Google on the grounds that since they stand to make money and have a stake, they'll manage it better than a typica…

The difference between a corporation and a government is that the corporation has a clear conflict of interest. Also, keep in mind that French governmental organizations are typically less dysfunctional than American ones.

French governmental organizations are typically less dysfunctional than American ones

Sorry, the research I've seen has shown the American government to be marginally more effective [1] and marginally less venal [2] at a much lower relative cost [3] than the French government. Quangos are usually in a class of their own when it comes to derision for public sector inefficiency [4].

[1] http://info.worldbank.org/governance/wgi/worldmap.asp (2010 Government Effectiveness)

[2] http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#Government_...

[4] http://www.economist.com/node/18867672

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#17

Post by pierrebai » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 5:17 PM UTC

pfortuny wrote: post #3

Once again, France proves itself the paradise of Socialism... This is utterly unbelievable.

Unbelievable is the level of comment on HN. Let's see, the law:

1. Aim to make available orphaned work. 2. Only applies to work unpublished for at least 5 years. 3. The public publishing right can be revoked by the author or publisher. 4. The author is getting royalties. 5. There is no censoring.

Let's compare to another somewhat related case of royalties land grab, iPhone publishing:

1. Aim to control and profit from other people work. 2. Applies to all iPhone published work from day one. 3. There is no alternative other than not publish your iPhone app. 4. Apple gets a cut, always. 5. Apple gets to decide what gets published or not, unilaterally.

It's funny also to compare this to, say, how the music radio system works. Hey, it's compulsory diffusion of work without the author consent with a government-prescribed royalty payment system. For current works. Ah, but music radio stations are mostly privately owned, so this all right?

All in all, the law is reasonable and makes a honest attempt to leave the author in control. I could even envision that small and amateur author would want their work exclusively distributed by such a system, if the royalties are fair.

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#18

Post by foreverbanned » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 5:27 PM UTC

ggchappell wrote: post #4

I'm not clear on what's supposed to be so bad about this law. The article fails to explain that the intent of the law is to deal with the problem of orphaned works. It creates a process whereby out-of-print works can have have their copyright seized by the state, in order to make them available in digital form. Out-of-print works with a copyright date prior to 2001 are to be entered into a publicly available list. Li…

> Works that are not challenged within this period, have their rights seized, so that they can be published again.

It's even more restrictive : only the public libraries can make these works available (and only to there suscribers)

Re: France: All your books are belong to us

#19

Post by darxius » Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 5:38 PM UTC

cturner wrote: post #7

darxius wrote: post #2

Happy to see that the Pirate Party is standing up for fair copyright laws regardless of who their opponent is. Hopefully this law will whither away.

Not so in this corner. Use of the idea of fairness in argument is a red flag suggesting a lack of foundation by the person arguing. I think this opposition suggests that the party takes its positions from who its opponents are, rather than extending from a coherent underlying philosophy. The Pirate Party should take a strict line - abolish copyright altogether - rather than buying into the premises of their opponents…

From what I understand of the Pirate Party's mandate on copyright law, it seeks only to reform -- not abolish -- current copyright shenanigans. I got this information from the Pirate Party of Canada (but I'm pretty sure it's a universal mandate).