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Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

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Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#131

Post by strictnein »

elif wrote: post #104
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who thinks HFT should be forbidden? Stocks and investments are a nice thing to have, since you can buy a share of a company you believe in, they get the money, do stuff, you get dividends and in the end can sell the stock after some time too. HFT changes these "beliefs in company" to "beliefs that the stock will go up", and the timeframe of those "beliefs" is sometimes in milliseconds. This turns cl…

HFT isn't even that harmful. What's harmful is brokerages that hold large portions of financial instruments who take advantage of customers' live buying and selling with delayed swaps, intentional front running, etc. This is how the stock market was bullied before HFT, options markets, trading bots, etc enabled 'everyone' to do skeezy arbitrage and not just market makers. The only meaningful way to limit the efficacy…

> HFT isn't even that harmful. What's harmful is brokerages that hold large portions of financial instruments who take advantage of customers' live buying and selling with delayed swaps, intentional front running, etc

HFT does very similar things, except it's even more opaque to those not doing it. Large financial firms and exchanges sell their order data to HFTs. If you're interested in a deeper dive on what they're doing, a book like Flash Boys will explain how there's a lot more going on than just a quicker network connection.

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#132

Post by wmf »

thesz wrote: post #99
ortusdux wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starlink's laser connections have been active for a year now.

[1] https://wccftech.com/starlink-turns-on-laser-satellites-for-... Judging from [1], lasers are used not for inter-satellite links, but for downstream or upstream links - from satellites to the ground. Intersatellite links require precise machinery, such as picometer-precise positioning systems [2]. [2] https://www.pi-usa.us/fileadmin/user_upload/pi_us/files/prod... Also, there should be compensation for satellite r…

Don't read WCCFTech; they don't know what they're talking about.

AFAIK the satellites within an orbital plane are stationary relative to each other, so once the laser is aimed it should stay connected.

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#133

Post by Terr_ »

vgatherps wrote: post #126
Terr_ wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would that look like? One attempt is the exchange IEX [0] which introduced a ~350 microsecond delay to everything simply by running incoming order data through a ~60km loop of fiber-optic cable. Perhaps not the most, er, featureful solution, but it's very easy to audit and argue that there are no biases or backdoors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEX

If everybody is exactly 350us slower, then it’s still the same game. Iex also offers a variety of (dark) order types that can pull back without the 350us delay if iex believes the incoming flow will be toxic

> If everybody is exactly 350us slower, then it’s still the same game.

IANATrader, but I don't think that's entirely true. Yes, it won't stop Carol from getting information from somewhere and then running in front of Alice to the same exchange. [0]

However even fixed-delays [1] can still create uncertainty about what price your order may actually execute at when it hits the server, which is something HFTs rely on more heavily than other traders, since their strategy depends on high-certainty that they will have a small positive margin on every trade.

__

[0] I find it geeky-amusing to write (i.e. IEX) or (ex: IEX) because it feels like the start of a mental tounge-twister.

[1] Can't edit my original post anymore, but apparently there's another 350μs on the outbound path too.

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#134

Post by irq-1 »

off topic: NASA is working on lasers in space.

> The Deep Space Optical Communications (DSOC) package aboard NASA’s Psyche mission utilizes photons -- the fundamental particle of visible light -- to transmit more data in a given amount of time. The DSOC goal is to increase spacecraft communications performance and efficiency by 10 to 100 times over conventional means, all without increasing the mission burden in mass, volume, power and/or spectrum.

https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/tdm/feature/Deep...

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#135

Post by phkahler »

elif wrote: post #104
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who thinks HFT should be forbidden? Stocks and investments are a nice thing to have, since you can buy a share of a company you believe in, they get the money, do stuff, you get dividends and in the end can sell the stock after some time too. HFT changes these "beliefs in company" to "beliefs that the stock will go up", and the timeframe of those "beliefs" is sometimes in milliseconds. This turns cl…

HFT isn't even that harmful. What's harmful is brokerages that hold large portions of financial instruments who take advantage of customers' live buying and selling with delayed swaps, intentional front running, etc. This is how the stock market was bullied before HFT, options markets, trading bots, etc enabled 'everyone' to do skeezy arbitrage and not just market makers. The only meaningful way to limit the efficacy…

>> The only meaningful way to limit the efficacy of these modern trading styles would be purposeful market friction through minimum holding times, circuit breakers, etc

So I occasionally try to think of a reason to have a guaranteed delay due to signal propagation delay to/from Mars. Would there be a use for putting an automated exchange there? Maybe, but then whomever gates the orders could monitor and predict what will happen 40 minutes out or whatever. Need TLS from trader to exchange or something.

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#136

Post by dylan604 »

IshKebab wrote: post #130
dylan604 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is a proper cloud? it does not seem to be a term frequently used when discussing clouds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud

Is this parody?

Not any more than saying a "proper cloud" will disrupt satellite transmissions is meant to be serious. Is it a cirrus cloud? Is it a cumulus? A cumulonimbus? Which cloud is going to do this blocking?

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#137

Post by govg »

phkahler wrote: post #135
elif wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HFT isn't even that harmful. What's harmful is brokerages that hold large portions of financial instruments who take advantage of customers' live buying and selling with delayed swaps, intentional front running, etc. This is how the stock market was bullied before HFT, options markets, trading bots, etc enabled 'everyone' to do skeezy arbitrage and not just market makers. The only meaningful way to limit the efficacy…

>> The only meaningful way to limit the efficacy of these modern trading styles would be purposeful market friction through minimum holding times, circuit breakers, etc So I occasionally try to think of a reason to have a guaranteed delay due to signal propagation delay to/from Mars. Would there be a use for putting an automated exchange there? Maybe, but then whomever gates the orders could monitor and predict what…

You might be interested in IEX [0]. The idea behind that stock exchange was similar to your thought process - introduce a guaranteed delay / random offset so that HFTs can't exploit the markets the way they do others.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEX

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#138

Post by CameronNemo »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #76
ortusdux wrote: post #13

Current fiber optic cables transmit signals at 2/3rds the speed of light. Modeling has shown that starlink's laser backbone would allow it to beat deep-sea cables in some situations. This article estimates a NYSE -> FTSE reduction from 76ms to 43ms. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a HFT bidding war going on. https://archmeregreenarch.org/1456/news/starlink-and-the-ris... There is a newer version of fib…

Am I the only one who thinks HFT should be forbidden? Stocks and investments are a nice thing to have, since you can buy a share of a company you believe in, they get the money, do stuff, you get dividends and in the end can sell the stock after some time too. HFT changes these "beliefs in company" to "beliefs that the stock will go up", and the timeframe of those "beliefs" is sometimes in milliseconds. This turns cl…

If you have not already looked into it, the Long Term Stock Exchange (LTSE) is trying to buck this trend and cater to patient capital.

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#139

Post by lucubratory »

robertlagrant wrote: post #121
gnopgnip wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raising the financial transaction tax to 0.1%, 1$ per $1000 would eliminate the vast majority of unproductive and rent seeking HFT without negatively effecting liquidity. The US already has an FTT to fund the SEC, implementation should be straightforward. Currently the rate is very low, about 0.002%. Raising the rate would be minimally impactful for longer term investors and generate on the order of $50b a year for t…

What's rent-seeking HFT?

I'm not that person, but presumably it's that someone has purchased real estate in a geographically relevant location and constructed property on it/between it and the exchange which gives them an insurmountable latency advantage in HFT, and they are characterising the raking in of cash from that latency advantage as rent seeking.

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#140

Post by sleepybrett »

Used to work, in the early naughts, for a company that had a laser uplink in seattle from their office building to the westin. I sat in the office with the uplink for awhile, pointed out the window with a big gimble, you could watch it adjust for building sway.

Uplink went to shit in heavy fog though...

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