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Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

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Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#121

Post by robertlagrant »

gnopgnip wrote: post #98
willis936 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that look like? If you rate limit stock exchanges to something like 1 update per minute then there will likely be the same amount of networking and computation going on to speculate on the next update and calculate optimal plays. It just moves it to behind closed doors where it is harder to know if shenanigans are going on. It would take a heavier hand to push against this problem. I'm all for it, I'm just…

Raising the financial transaction tax to 0.1%, 1$ per $1000 would eliminate the vast majority of unproductive and rent seeking HFT without negatively effecting liquidity. The US already has an FTT to fund the SEC, implementation should be straightforward. Currently the rate is very low, about 0.002%. Raising the rate would be minimally impactful for longer term investors and generate on the order of $50b a year for t…

What's rent-seeking HFT?

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#122

Post by patmorgan23 »

EMM_386 wrote: post #96
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well sure it's for profit, but what exactly do we (the society) get if we allow millisecond investments in our companies? Compared to classic, long-term investments.

The common answer will be "liquidity". The honest answer is probably nothing.

Are HFTs taking trades that otherwise wouldn't have happened?

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#123

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #114
ortusdux wrote: post #13

Current fiber optic cables transmit signals at 2/3rds the speed of light. Modeling has shown that starlink's laser backbone would allow it to beat deep-sea cables in some situations. This article estimates a NYSE -> FTSE reduction from 76ms to 43ms. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a HFT bidding war going on. https://archmeregreenarch.org/1456/news/starlink-and-the-ris... There is a newer version of fib…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#124

Post by karkari »

gnopgnip wrote: post #98
willis936 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that look like? If you rate limit stock exchanges to something like 1 update per minute then there will likely be the same amount of networking and computation going on to speculate on the next update and calculate optimal plays. It just moves it to behind closed doors where it is harder to know if shenanigans are going on. It would take a heavier hand to push against this problem. I'm all for it, I'm just…

Raising the financial transaction tax to 0.1%, 1$ per $1000 would eliminate the vast majority of unproductive and rent seeking HFT without negatively effecting liquidity. The US already has an FTT to fund the SEC, implementation should be straightforward. Currently the rate is very low, about 0.002%. Raising the rate would be minimally impactful for longer term investors and generate on the order of $50b a year for t…

Is the $50b/year figure estimated after assuming the 'unproductive and rent seeking' HFT volume is eliminated?

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#126

Post by vgatherps »

Terr_ wrote: post #84
willis936 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that look like? If you rate limit stock exchanges to something like 1 update per minute then there will likely be the same amount of networking and computation going on to speculate on the next update and calculate optimal plays. It just moves it to behind closed doors where it is harder to know if shenanigans are going on. It would take a heavier hand to push against this problem. I'm all for it, I'm just…

> What would that look like? One attempt is the exchange IEX [0] which introduced a ~350 microsecond delay to everything simply by running incoming order data through a ~60km loop of fiber-optic cable. Perhaps not the most, er, featureful solution, but it's very easy to audit and argue that there are no biases or backdoors. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEX

If everybody is exactly 350us slower, then it’s still the same game.

Iex also offers a variety of (dark) order types that can pull back without the 350us delay if iex believes the incoming flow will be toxic

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#127

Post by vgatherps »

Xcelerate wrote: post #102
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who thinks HFT should be forbidden? Stocks and investments are a nice thing to have, since you can buy a share of a company you believe in, they get the money, do stuff, you get dividends and in the end can sell the stock after some time too. HFT changes these "beliefs in company" to "beliefs that the stock will go up", and the timeframe of those "beliefs" is sometimes in milliseconds. This turns cl…

I have a suspicion that at some point, an HFT group will obtain a brief but substantial lead in machine learning (a la RenTech, but on a shorter timeframe) that allows them to suck a decent amount of money out of the stock market before anyone else can respond or close the gap. We probably won’t get any sort of regulation until after that happens.

Hft groups are about 15-20 years ahead of you on that

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#128

Post by lend000 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #76
ortusdux wrote: post #13

Current fiber optic cables transmit signals at 2/3rds the speed of light. Modeling has shown that starlink's laser backbone would allow it to beat deep-sea cables in some situations. This article estimates a NYSE -> FTSE reduction from 76ms to 43ms. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a HFT bidding war going on. https://archmeregreenarch.org/1456/news/starlink-and-the-ris... There is a newer version of fib…

Am I the only one who thinks HFT should be forbidden? Stocks and investments are a nice thing to have, since you can buy a share of a company you believe in, they get the money, do stuff, you get dividends and in the end can sell the stock after some time too. HFT changes these "beliefs in company" to "beliefs that the stock will go up", and the timeframe of those "beliefs" is sometimes in milliseconds. This turns cl…

Where do you think all your liquidity comes from when you want to buy or sell some instrument? The difference in price isn't all that substantial if all you do is buy now, sell when cash is needed in retirement, but if you're that kind of general index investor, one could argue that your contribution to markets is actually negative (whereas HFT is helpful by making prices better and spreads tighter). Buying SPX makes no differentiation between bad and good companies in the index and allocates money based on current prices (which are mainly calculated by HFT's who did the legwork to get to the current point).

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#129

Post by lend000 »

beirut_bootleg wrote: post #109
marcell wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the actual harm of HFT for the average person? I can set a $ limit on my orders, so I don't pay more than I want. Why should I care if some HFT guy scrapes 0.01% value off each trade?

It scrapes that % every trade, every millisecond, thousands of times over. That adds up, and all that money has to come from somewhere.

That's the price you pay for liquidity, and the alternative (paying a difference in price far more than 0.01%) makes everyone worse off except other people competing in the markets. The money HFT's make comes from other people trading the zero sum short term trading game, not you (assuming you are longer term investor or non-participant in the market), so why should you or others in your situation get worked up about it? It seems like either a demonization of that which people do not understand, a class warfare sort of vibe, or both.

Re: Lasers enable satellite internet backbone, might remove need for deep-sea cables

#130

Post by IshKebab »

dylan604 wrote: post #112
NohatCoder wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of this I really doubt the claim about working in bad weather. Some weather will work, sure, maybe at reduced speeds. But if there is a proper cloud in the way, the near-visible 1550 nm light will be scattered completely.

what is a proper cloud? it does not seem to be a term frequently used when discussing clouds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud

Is this parody?
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