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Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

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Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#901

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, women have been barred from pursuing education, from voting, from making their own medical decisions, from holding political/academic/religious/scientific positions of power, from controlling their own finances, and from participating in the majority of careers, among many many other examples. Lack of access to these things necessarily constrains one’s autonomy. And some of these restrictions persist ev…

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There’s a lot to unpack here, but just to touch on a few issues with this premise:

1) If men were simply trying to protect women from unpleasantness, there would be no need to ban women from additive things like education, property ownership, spiritual leadership, medical autonomy, etc.

2) Women have been performing difficult, uncomfortable work (think agriculture and factories) alongside men this whole time; the occupations women were prevented to hold tended to be the cushier ones in law, fine art, medicine, engineering, finance, etc.

3. Based on demographic voting patterns, the effects of democracy that you seem to dislike are more significantly attributed to men.

4. When men “don’t include” women in a realm in the ways you’ve described, the best case scenario is that women have no legal recourse when they’re denied entry to it (like when women were turned away from college entrance or bank account ownership). In worse scenarios, the consequence could be imprisonment.

5. To act as an autonomous, self-directed, free person is nigh impossible without access to education, property ownership, self-governance, and personal financial resources. Try to imagine how many life decisions would be unavailable to you without these basic rights.

To broaden your worldview, I would recommend picking a topic that interests you historically and digging into the history of women’s relationship to it. You might be surprised by some of the nonsensical ways in which women have been prevented from participating in the most fulfilling realms of human experience.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, yes there always were and always will be some abusive men, but men _as a group_ have been more associated with protecting and caring for women than being hostile to them. As much a slaveowner has been "protecting and caring" for his slaves.

You could easily equate that statement to a “mother protecting and caring for her children” It’s pretty trite and meaningless to boil every dependent relationship into one of slavery. In the past, most women had to pick between marriage with an established man so she can have many kids starting young, versus working for herself and having no or few kids. It’s no surprise many women chose marriage.

Comparing it to children is not better. If anything, it's worse.

Women are not children. They don't want to be protected, especially when they've chosen not to be. Women don't want to lose agency in the name of being cared for. Children don't have that option, because they're not adults.

Adult women want to be treated as adults, and very much resent the implication that they need protection. Especially when that comes with losing control over their own bodies.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#903
post #814

The HN commentary on this article is strange. The title is "The ‘manning up of boys begins in the cradle.’ But what boys really need is emotional support from their dads" (why is the HN submission title different from the article title, by the way?). Yet so many commenters here are arguing about men's rights and discrimination against men instead. The article isn't about how fathers are somehow prevented from being e…

>The article isn't about how fathers are somehow prevented from being emotionally available to their sons; rather, it's about how fathers choose to be emotionally unavailable to their sons in the misguided notion that boys need to be trained from childhood to be "manly" and "strong".

People here are explaining why fathers are being emotionally unavailable to their sons.

It's not a mistake, and it's not neglect. The fathers aren't idiots or abusers.

It's to train the son to be able to function in a world that doesn't care and will never care about his feelings, his pain, his safety, or his life. A world where all acceptance and love is conditional on being useful to someone else.

The fathers understand that showing weakness or needing emotional help as a male simply makes people distrust, reject, abuse, and abandon you. We've all had this experience over and over. They care about their sons, so they try to teach them the easy way, before the world teachers them the hard way.

It's "the talk" for boys.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#904
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up on shitty side of that research, I make it a point in my life to be the exact opposite for my son.

Can you share a little more (anecdote) about what this means to you? > Was your dad mostly absent, over-working, or what? Or emotionally invisible?

My mom and bio dad were divorced when I was 11 months old, and I had basically zero contact with him until age 15 or 16. My mom re-married an alcoholic racist fuck who was on my very short list of people that I genuinely wished he were dead (he is now, so he's no longer on the list). He wasn't physically abusive, but he was certainly hella verbally abusive.

In the nearly 40 years since re-establishing contact with my bio dad, he hasn't exactly proven himself as a role model. He falls into the "woe is me" category of low income people. He always finds excuses.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#905

They also need rough play. Last night, I was playing with my nephew, and I was just picking him up and tossing him on the couch. Then, I was choking him out, and he was just laughing and laughing. I think about what men need most, and I'm pretty sure it is brotherhood. People that you can go, hang out with, and not hold back with. I've thought about getting into men's health because I see the future in my nephew. I d…

Maybe something lost in translation here, but I don't think anyone needs to be choked out lol

My nephew did. It was light choking until he tapped out.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But these qualities are gendered. Women are in general not wanting to be leaders in the same fields as men, and these fields are generally in prominent prestige (think roles like banking, lawyers, leadership, etc). In fields like medicine where there is more gender balance and even more women at the lower roles (like Nurses), we see these fields have more qualities of care imbued as well as the leadership that a phys…

There are some errors in your reasoning, though. Here's one. When people collect datapoints and observe a difference in one case not present in the other, they sometimes fall into the trap of thinking that their dataset is exhaustive - that it captures all the variables that matter. In other words, it's easy to start with the observation "women tend to be more represented in fields that exhibit qualities of care and…

Thanks for your reply. I would like to see social factors put to a similar rigor of analysis then, since it seems to me that you are proposing socialization is (1) a major factor and (2) that the socialization of women towards non-leadership roles is incorrect from a normative standpoint.

My counterpoint is that motherhood, pregnancy, chastity, fertility, these are tied up in the biologic of a woman, and these fulfill important roles that can’t be explained by social factors. We are not at the stage where we can replace women with mass artificial wombs and then no child has a “mother” they know and grow with. Rather we know from studies that a nurturing mother is incredibly important for a child at the epigenetic level all the way to the social level.

So much of a social role is devised around motherhood and so much of male mating and paternity is focused on not wanting the woman to have children who are not his.

This is why it is said polygamy is a natural choice for people, women are more likely to accept and be ok with having one husband even if he has multiple wives, compared to the inverse. From a biological paternity standpoint, this makes a lot of sense.

I also challenge your notion that scientific studies conducted in a research study fashion are the preferred criterion for evidence. A study without context and understanding is dangerous. And there are many truths we know without putting them to the now industrialized scientific process of producing studies —- many of which suffer political and ideological pressures in terms of what they can study when it comes to the relationship between human behavior and controversial social issues.

So when you say women are pushed into caregiver roles… this is obvious if you understand the concept of motherhood. As for a rise in women leaders of countries, I will say overwhelmingly the political and business class is male, and generally women are not suited for leadership of a country. We saw a rising “feminization” of society in terms of corporate interactions and corporate decorum now being a default in many respects for how society operates; there are also ideological reasons to elevate “women leaders”; all of these are reasons I suggest you see a rise in women leaders of countries. If you look at societies where ostensible crude military control and authority are important to display, or even in war situations, we see that men are by far the ones involved in combat.

A big question to ask, why so few women in the military roles then, if they have been open to women now? If you look at women’s physical performance it becomes obvious. We aren’t at the stage of all robot armies yet; and the militaries of today are still by far men.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#907

This comment will probably be lost but hey maybe someone will read it: We inherited a world where for many generations, men were hostile to women. It was unfair and needed rectifying. But increasingly, we fixed it by normalizing hostility to men. Overemphasis on "toxic masculinity", hyper focus on promoting outcomes for girls while doing nothing of the sort for boys. Plenty of various "Women in X" supporting each oth…

Imo I think this comment would have had more weight behind it for me before recent political events and before Roe vs Wade was overturned. I don’t believe in easy answers and I don’t claim to be able to experience life from the other gender, but cat calling is still common in the US. Women still get payed significantly less than men. Women still have much higher risks of sexual assault. We just decided to roll back c…

Could it be that equality is not the just nor fair answer?

A big silence in terms of women’s equality is found in the most drastic case in fields like the military, where even though women have been allowed and encouraged via advertisement, is still overwhelmingly male worldwide. It’s obvious that women’s bodies are not the same as men’s bodies in general… so why would we aim for full equality (aka identicalness) given these basic facts that men are not like women?

Also see pay and work: the more time a woman spends at her job is less time with her kids, which directly impacts society in many unfortunate ways, especially since men are still often the breadwinners, and even sociobiologically, the role of motherhood cannot equal fatherhood. So is work pay more about capitalism & lowering wages or more about a nebulous sense of empowerment?

In terms of assault and harassment: there is also the general culture on both genders of situations that encourage this. For example, things like clubbing, heavy drinking, proximity with strangers, hookup culture, a culture focused on individualism and bringing attention to oneself in terms of clothing, behavior, etc… all of these are factors.

Perhaps to obtain the outcomes people wish to see, “equality” is not the answer.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#908

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a zero sum game. We can acknowledge that there has been regression or no change in some areas without any bearing on the negative outcomes of over corrective attitudes towards men. Food for thought: the types of men who are likely to rely on macho masculinity and the abuse of power dynamics are the least likely to be phased by an undercurrent of anti-male sentiment. Sensitive men, the men who are not prop…

I agree with much of this especially the lack of zero sum games, but a problem is this conversation takes oxogen away from bigger issues. We’re literally commenting on an article talking about how we still treat boys and men like they don’t or shouldn’t have emotions and thus don’t need emotional support and all the top comments are about how attacking toxic masculinity has gone too far? Like the problem here is seei…

> a problem is this conversation takes oxogen away from bigger issues

Is it? This doesn't seem like an obvious conclusion to me, and isn't this just another way to frame "zero sum" thinking? i.e. there's only so much oxygen, and it's better used over there on that other issue instead of here on this issue, with the implication being that using oxygen here detracts from other things over there.

Another way to frame this is that those other issues aren't seeing the desired progress for the same reasons these negative outcomes are starting to emerge: current strategy/tactics are not working effectively, and/or we aren't looking at a big enough picture. If this is true, conversations like this are necessary to address both, and to course correct as needed. A conversation about one should happen in the context of the bigger picture, and becomes a conversation about the other, raising awareness and moving the dialogue forward across both fronts.

I should be clear that I'm not taking a hard stance about this, but challenging the idea that we should steer clear of certain lines of discussion. I don't think we make progress until we expand our thinking to include an honest evaluation of actions taken and their effects (desired or otherwise), and narrowing the field of "acceptable" exploration seems like it can only be counterproductive.

> Do you know what the most popular source of news in this country is? Have you seen polling.

Not recently. What do you feel that these pieces of information indicate?

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#909
post #814

The HN commentary on this article is strange. The title is "The ‘manning up of boys begins in the cradle.’ But what boys really need is emotional support from their dads" (why is the HN submission title different from the article title, by the way?). Yet so many commenters here are arguing about men's rights and discrimination against men instead. The article isn't about how fathers are somehow prevented from being e…

>The article isn't about how fathers are somehow prevented from being emotionally available to their sons; rather, it's about how fathers choose to be emotionally unavailable to their sons in the misguided notion that boys need to be trained from childhood to be "manly" and "strong". People here are explaining why fathers are being emotionally unavailable to their sons. It's not a mistake, and it's not neglect. The f…

> It's not a mistake

I disagree.

> The fathers aren't idiots or abusers.

Well, a lot of fathers (and mothers, and non-parents) are idiots or abusers. There are no qualifications for the job other than having functional sexual organs.

> It's to train the son to be able to function in a world that doesn't care and will never care about his feelings, his pain, his safety, or his life. A world where all acceptance and love is conditional on being useful to someone else.

The question is, to what extent are we just "preparing" boys for that world, and to what extent are we creating and perpetuating that world by brainwashing boys into this mentality?

> The fathers understand that showing weakness or needing emotional help as a male simply makes people distrust, reject, abuse, and abandon you. We've all had this experience over and over.

Speak for yourself, not for me.

> They care about their sons, so they try to teach them the easy way

It's not the easy way, though. Boys do have emotional needs, and neglecting those needs takes a hard, enduring toll on them. It's like throwing the kid into the deep end of the pool and forcing them to sink or swim.

> It's "the talk" for boys.

Except there's very little talking. Talking about it would be emotional availability.

Again, "Fathers are also more likely to sing to and soothe their toddler daughters at night when they cry." That's not "the talk". You don't sit down and have a hard talk about the future with a toddler, who hasn't even learned how to speak yet.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#910

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this I think is hard to argue against. Historically, women had much fewer options in life. Basically, marry someone they don't pick, give them babies and look after the house. Poorer women had to work super hard, wealthier women less so, but were subordinate to the husbands whims, physically if nothing else. Where voting was a thing, they couldn't vote. They were often not in control of their finances. They wer…

The original comment said, "hostile" to women. What you're describing isn't being 'hostile', otherwise one would have to say society is 'hostile' to children or old people. The goal posts have moved to 'equal rights'. But of course by that measure nobody had equal rights. A man couldn't do things that were just for women, and vice versa. The argument you need to make is that women had it worse overall than men at the…

I think there's ample reason for 'not equal rights' to be treated as hostility. The biggest reason is direct or implied hostile opposition to obtaining equality. There was significant rejection by men for centuries of suffrage and other equal rights for women; this is hostility toward women's historical desires and wishes to be treated as equals.

Where it might be argued that individual men were only following cultural, religious, or other beliefs in denying equality to women then those cultures, religions, and other forces were hostile to women and their interests.

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