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The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

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61–70 of 206 posts

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#61

In my opinion this isn’t a consequence of the pandemic, but rather an inevitable outcome from the uneven pattern of building that vastly favored commercial real estate and prevented new housing. Even without teleworking, it was likely that jobs shifted toward suburban office parks as they had in the 80s to 2000s. People want to live close to work, and without sufficient housing in cities, commercial real estate in bi…

You're talking US zoning laws? We don't have those in the UK.

The bellwether we have for the health of the UK, or at least London, is train and tube usage. It has, apparently, returned to almost 100% of pre-COVID.

That's not to say that London's commercial properties are fully reoccupied, they're not, but London is perhaps doing slightly better than US cities in this regard.

Having said that - HSBC is moving from Canary Wharf back to a smaller building in the City (of London) because of the change to WFH: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-66019180

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#62
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite hard to turn modern office builds into housing. Recently-built offices have huge floors, so natural light can't penetrate into the interior. Those spaces are fine as meeting rooms, but won't suffice for living in.[1] It's possible to make apartments with no natural light, but most people don't want to live in those. If they're low in rent, maybe they'd be attractive enough. But then your rent/sqft number g…

But this is good. It means no new office buildings need to be built. The existing ownership and debt will simply be juggled and fought over, numbers on a spreadsheet. The buildings will still exist and be available for office needs at reduced costs (after debt takes a haircut). New urban construction can now focus solely on residential needs, and with housing unit shortages, this natural reallocation of construction…

If people aren't working in cities, it remains to be seen what that does to housing demand. There are a bunch of cities that aren't great from an employment perspective and, in general, they're not a big draw for people to live there either.

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#63
post #51

I have felt since I was a teen in the 90s that the world would be better served if offices, schools, and factories didn't exist. I thought that this centralization just increased the costs for everyone. Why not keep things decentralized and utilize the technologies we've built to manage the communications and interactions? If there's a CNC machine with one primary operator, why can he have that and the material gets…

> Why not keep things decentralized and utilize the technologies we've built to manage the communications and interactions? (...) I do acknowledge that humans are social animals and there are benefits to face to face interactions, but these come at enormous costs.

This sounds like a horrible vision for the future -- everyone completely separated, all interactions via video chat? All in the name of making sure we never have to leave our homes for convenience's sake?

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#64

Does anyone have any recommended background reading on how bubbles and "time bombs" work? Why don't these things behave according to normal price supply demand curves where the price would slowly come back down to earth over time. I've seen this repeat time and time again across certain assets, and always being curious about the underlying mechanisms.

People who are invested in these things are motivated to prop up the prices for as long as they can, until they can't and the bottom drops out.

It's not a normal supply/demand curve because the demand is not just lower, in a lot of cases it's gone and not coming back at any price.

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#65

In my opinion this isn’t a consequence of the pandemic, but rather an inevitable outcome from the uneven pattern of building that vastly favored commercial real estate and prevented new housing. Even without teleworking, it was likely that jobs shifted toward suburban office parks as they had in the 80s to 2000s. People want to live close to work, and without sufficient housing in cities, commercial real estate in bi…

Seems to me that we've speed run the story of why suburban sprawl exist in the first place.

A car is a machine to provide negotiating leverage in real estate markets.

Dense urban centers, while awesome in many ways, easily lend themselves to the development of grassroots real estate cartels made up of property owners who block new construction to profit from real estate appreciation. As this occurs people are forced further and further out to find affordable places to live. Eventually the jobs start to follow, leading to tax base collapse and urban decay. This leads to a death spiral of urban decay, crime, and population flight.

Then the city gets cheap and people start to move in again. Repeat cycle. Cities get cool -> people move in -> cities get expensive because you can't build -> people move out -> cities collapse.

There are places that seem able to avoid this cycle, such as Tokyo, but AFAIK that relies on a different kind of governance regime that takes zoning away from local bodies and enforces a uniform pro-density zoning code at the city or even larger scale. Basically you have to break the NIMBY cartel. It also involves very proactive transit policies that build out transit to match density.

Of course it could also be due in part to Japan's declining population, which makes it pretty hard to have real estate inflation.

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#66
post #51

I have felt since I was a teen in the 90s that the world would be better served if offices, schools, and factories didn't exist. I thought that this centralization just increased the costs for everyone. Why not keep things decentralized and utilize the technologies we've built to manage the communications and interactions? If there's a CNC machine with one primary operator, why can he have that and the material gets…

Economies of scale are a thing to reckon with. Right now in a factory that CNC operator ideally ships the part to the next workstation metres away without needing extensive packing for safe handling and it arrives in minutes. Or it goes to a shelving stack that buffers the flow of parts within the factory but still requires relatively little protective packaging. Freighting everything between micro-companies works in the other direction: it's more likely to be done for low-volume and/or very specialised parts.

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#67
post #35

For those cheering on the demise of office landlords, please keep in mind the astonishing number of public and private pension plans invested in these assets. The impact will not be limited to just the landlords and will be nothing short of catastrophic to downtowns (which we’ve just spent the last 30 years trying to rejuvenate after being hollowed out by white flight to the suburbs), the character of our cities, our…

It is an excellent idea to step back and look at the bigger picture.

I put it to you that while you have taken one step back, you will get a clearer view if you take 10 paces back.

We are in the midst of catastrophic accelerating climate change. We are heading for a world that is 3-4º C warmer by the end of the 21st century, when children born today are getting to old age. That means the certain collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and worldwide sea level rise of 5-6 metres in those kids' lifetimes.

Now look at how much of these expensive cities and their expensive offices are build under 5-6m of current high tide level. All those buildings will be lost to the sea before they are paid off. All those investors will lose their money. All cities and city districts wholly located within 5-6m of mean sea level will disappear completely.

Just considering sea level rise, whole nation states will disappear. Whole economic sectors will collapse.

But it's not just about sea level rise. With 3-4º of warming, much of the tropics becomes uninhabitable. Most glaciers disappear; currently fertile countries lose their year-round water supply.

The Himalays are called the world's 3rd pole. 5 or 6 major rivers originating in the glaciers of the Himalayas provide about one third of all humanity with their fresh water.

All those countries become desert, even if only seasonal desert. All agriculture fails.

If you view the world in terms of money -- not a good strong robust worldview at all, but a common one -- then there are far far bigger financial threats looming than empty offices and bankrupt financial institutions that invested in them.

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#68
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will be bailed out guaranteed. Can kicking is the only solution.

> Can kicking is the only solution. Oh come on, we can do far more than can kicking. There is always war, revolution, and decades of economic hardship!

> decades of economic hardship

That one is can kicking.

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#69
post #51

I have felt since I was a teen in the 90s that the world would be better served if offices, schools, and factories didn't exist. I thought that this centralization just increased the costs for everyone. Why not keep things decentralized and utilize the technologies we've built to manage the communications and interactions? If there's a CNC machine with one primary operator, why can he have that and the material gets…

[dead]

Re: The world’s empty office buildings have become a debt time bomb

#70
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and my understanding is that SVB's assets, which are still productive over the long term, were sold on to pay for this "bailout." So the narrative that there was a government bailout is not really true here. The real concern I've heard is that FDIC insurance paid out to a lot of depositors who had more than the statutory limit, but what's left out is that FDIC actually sold on SVB's assets to pay those depositor…

SVB’s bailout is estimated to have cost the FDIC 20B. The Fed also set up new lending programs to support the banks, which was essentially free* money.

To be clear, that money comes from the Deposit Insurance Fund
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