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XML is the future

bitecode.dev

241–250 of 408 posts

Re: XML is the future

#241
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what people are missing is that sure, code "rots", at the very least because of security patches. But since this all happens to everything simultaneously, the more distinct layers and support tools you have in your stack, the more often you have to deal with something breaking in a nontrivial way. In short: the more moving parts you have, the less time you have between major malfunctions. (Manufacturing and h…

Yea, it’s definitely about trading features for simplicity.

Right, and it's easy to think about all the winnings when things go right - it's harder to think about increased frequency and cost of failure due to increase in complexity and number of independently moving parts.

Re: XML is the future

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest thing with containers is, these 40 vulnerabilities won't matter as much if they're about erasing your directories or killing your machine. It will get rebooted in a pristine state and an attacker would need to stick there killing it at every reboot to have lasting effect. Which is also the point of monitoring a container, which is fairly reliable nowadays, compared to managing your own health check servic…

> won't matter as much if they're about erasing your directories or killing your machine Those sort of attacks have tapered off though, right? Unless you're engaged in a specific feud, or have caught the ire of a social justice warrior, these days we're mostly looking at data exfiltration as the primary goal. That being said, there are a lot of ongoing feuds and active social justice warriors.

If we're talking about common, automated attacks, I think the game plan for the past few years has been to probe for systems vulnerable to RCE, install a crypto miner, join the server to a botnet and see how long it takes its owner to notice.

Re: XML is the future

#243
God damn I miss Naggum.

"In many ways, the current American presidency and XML have much in common. Both have clear lineages back to very intelligent people. Both demonstrate what happens when you give retards the tools of the intelligent."

The list is just too long now: OOP, COM, CORBA, UML, Scrum, Microservices, JSON RPC, ReactJS, writing shit in JavaScript when you don't have to, LangChain, all of it. It's just fucking stupid and wrong and frankly the software business isn't for everyone.

It doesn't make you a bad person that you're not serious about this shit.

https://www.schnada.de/grapt/eriknaggum-xmlrant.html

Re: XML is the future

#244
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s another perspective: A decade ago you could deploy an internal PHP app to a box and forget about it for a few years, then fix a minor bug by sshing in, viming a file, and hacking it a few times. These days, if you leave the app untouched for six months that 10 minute fix becomes 2 hours of fixing a broken docker build. :)

In the meantime, your PHP app had 40 major security flaws, no meaningful monitoring, a DB that wasn't backed up and major data consistency problems. Also, when your box's hdd crashed, you lost all those minor changes you had vim'ed over the years. But for the rest, yeah, all is fine.

> In the meantime, your PHP app had 40 major security flaws, no meaningful monitoring,

How does Kubernetes, microservices and front end frameworks fix that?

They don't. In fact, as someone who works at the more modern end of these things, I'd suspect that "no meaningful monitoring" probably correlates quite well with cloud era microservices thingies.

But we can't blame the tools, that space is just younger and by nature contains more immature stuff.

I don't think the argument here is for keeping things out of version control and monitoring. It's that you can actually leave stuff alone for several years, come back and find it working just as before, when the layers underneath doesn't constantly change. That can be liberating.

Re: XML is the future

#245
post #7

I've been working in the tech industry in the US for about 5 years. Ever since I knew myself I've been coding. From middle school to high school, given any problem, like Sudoku, or keeping up daily chores, my solution was Programming! Programming wasy homebase. Then I studied it in uni, thought I was kinda good at it, and loved it. But when I started working in the industry, I realized that it's absolutely exhausting…

I am in the exact opposite,but equally frustrating boat.

In last 5 years, I have worked at 2 Faang and a large hedge fund and everywhere they had extremely outdated stack or undocumented in-house stack or outdated undocumented in-house stack. Already derecated dependencies were pinned years ago and management won't let you modernize anything since there "no business value in it" and we need to ship a feature instead and if you still insist to refactor and modernize and something goes wrong, now you are personally responsible for the outage. The effort you spent successfully upgrading decades old stack won't count in your promo packet.

There is just no incentive to upgrade anything beyond security fixes. Rewrite to chase the latest fad is frustrating but using technologies which don't even have online documentation anymore is equally if not more frustrating.

Re: XML is the future

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it is. But being simplified and separated from SGML it somehow revealed a clearer idea of what a notation is. SGML is a markup language and as far as I remember it (not too well), it never was disassociated from the text; maybe it was possible, but not widespread. XML without text content is perfectly usable and is even more convenient.

What you're saying is that you were first introduced to these concepts when XML came up. Totally understandable given the hype, but I can only suggest to look deeper, where things become interesting. For example, have you ever wondered about the reason for XML's obvious, excessive redundancy requiring matching end-element tags to be specified in full, when " " (as is possible with SGML) is sufficient given that XML d…

I precisely advocate using non-text XML as well. It is not to represent data per se, but to represent it in a human-friendly way. To represent data for a computer the best way would be to serialize in some reasonable manner a subset of a database:

    Table { name Schema { ... } 
      Row { enum 123 "text" etc } ... }
    Table { ... }
That is all. Truly, a very good form, suitable for anything, not biased in any way. But it would not be easy for a human to author such a subset without quickly getting lost in tables and records. Yet somehow humans can write gigantic volumes of code. So it is not that it is difficult for us to type or something. What makes writing code easy compared to describing a set of tables?

Writing code follows some structure, the grammar. And grammar ends up in an AST, which thus exists there all the time and is the only thing that gets to the computer; text is only the medium. Let’s render AST as XML and see what remains if we drop all text. I see the following: 1) element type and attributes, 2) names and references, 3) an element encloses other elements, 4) elements come one after another. The first two are present in the database form as well, but the last two do not. I think composition and ordering are precisely the tools that let us to implicitly embed some information and make it possible to author large amounts of structured data.

(Textless XML by definition has no elements-vs-attributes problem. All goes into attributes except things that have to go into elements. Usually it is not hard to decide: they can repeat, or depend on order, or appear elsewhere; very similar to database normalization.)

Re: XML is the future

#247
post #7

I've been working in the tech industry in the US for about 5 years. Ever since I knew myself I've been coding. From middle school to high school, given any problem, like Sudoku, or keeping up daily chores, my solution was Programming! Programming wasy homebase. Then I studied it in uni, thought I was kinda good at it, and loved it. But when I started working in the industry, I realized that it's absolutely exhausting…

After a decade I think I’ve concluded for myself that this is, for the most part, a self-inflicted problem. There’s really no need to keep refactoring or feel like others need to stop inventing new ways of doing things.

Re: XML is the future

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look I'm not even complaining. But it feels like I'm stuck in a Franz Kafka novel. We just keep changing and changing the same things again and again because that's the new way to do. Big distraction. Destroys your workflow. Forget about all the util scripts you wrote last 6 months being useless. Here's how I stay sane -- I focus on the changes. For the technologies that you noted, here are some good questions that…

I would phrase almost the same idea from the opposite angle: focus on the fundamentals that never change, and view the trends in terms of how they relate to those fundamentals. But also, those are some pretty odd comparisons. For sure Ansible and Terraform aren't directly comparable. If anything they're complementary. Terraform provisions machines (and also infra, etc), and Ansible configures provisioned machines.

> Terraform provisions machines (and also infra, etc), and Ansible configures provisioned machines

Ansible can provision virtual machines as well, and from my experience it is better suited for it too, since it doesn't save state outside the system. So there's lesser chance for it to get out of sync.

It's mostly culture. People these days learn GKE or Kubernetes first, and their tutorials mention Terraform so that's what they'll use. It used to be managed VMs and that culture was around Puppet, Ansible or Salt.

Re: XML is the future

#249
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you forget about a PHP container for a few years it will /also/ have 40 new vulnerabilities. Actually, containers are worse because OS updates of core shared libraries do nothing. You have to rebuild every damn container. Setting up monitoring for your docker containers is also a whole thing. :) I think you’re taking my example a little too literally. My point is not that docker/k8s/whatever is bad; just that the…

The biggest thing with containers is, these 40 vulnerabilities won't matter as much if they're about erasing your directories or killing your machine. It will get rebooted in a pristine state and an attacker would need to stick there killing it at every reboot to have lasting effect. Which is also the point of monitoring a container, which is fairly reliable nowadays, compared to managing your own health check servic…

Layering more abstractions on top of what was already complicated doesn’t fix the complications below, it just hides them. You then have to hope that there’s not a bug somewhere in between those layers. Additionally, each new layer has a cost in performance. More layers means more compute, and eventually mean more money. If you’re Netflix, it’s worth it, if you’re not… what admins dealt with before wasn’t so bad. Now that that job has largely been killed and renamed 20 times, it’s far worse. Admins don’t just have to deal with a server, they have to deal with a server and 60 containers which are just little baby servers.

Re: XML is the future

#250

While there are much better parsers by now XML has some major problems (in no specific order): - it's quite complicated with a lot of niche issues many parsers don't handle nicely - it has serious issues when it comes to semantic vs. non-semantic white spaces, this happens to not matter for some applications does does matter a lot for others - it is in a uncanny valley between being good for human writing and good fo…

Article isn’t really about XML, fyi.
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