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Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

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Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your take about society, I disagree that boys have less space to be boys. Boys will be boys, no matter what the world does. There will never be a shortage of boys who want to throw rocks and jump in mud until their feet get stuck.

> Boys will be boys, no matter what the world does. You are saying this based based off of.. what exactly? I disagree with this entirely. The world has a huge effect on what boys do. In a social media world driven by likes, clicks and endless consumption, you have to be very careful about what is said or done as it is easy for something to be take out of context, and magnified for the whole world to see.

> You are saying this based based off of.. what exactly?

Based on the fact that boys are indeed boys, and hence, they will be boys.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#532
post #518
post #394

I spent a summer teaching at a high school with separate gender classrooms. One thing that stuck out was that the women were motivated from hearing them out and how they felt first and men were motivated by giving them a challenge. To some extent, society is becoming more effeminate. This is a good thing in giving more opportunity for women, but there seems to be less space for men to grow or learn to be men. The mai…

What does it mean to learn to be men?

Resilience, courage, strength

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#533
post #528
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not my experience. The message was bitterness, and there is a reason their lot is poorly perceived. Try /r/menslib for a healthier discussion that isn’t centred around blaming women for everything.

> that isn’t centred around blaming women for everything. Without clicking the link, I just know it's gonna be the patriarchy/masculinity, right?

Kind of? It’s a bit of everything, because the place fosters civil discussion. It’s a pleasamt place to talk it out, which is the whole point.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#534
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They mean the message of the movie not the community.

Correct. I am not and have not been involved with any of those communities. I saw the documentary was free on YouTube and was interested in watching it because I recalled the controversy over it.

I will queue it up and see for myself

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your take about society, I disagree that boys have less space to be boys. Boys will be boys, no matter what the world does. There will never be a shortage of boys who want to throw rocks and jump in mud until their feet get stuck.

> Boys will be boys, no matter what the world does. This seems wildly overstated and naive. Things are rapidly changing. Forget the world, a mother alone has a massive influence on whether a child will engage in the behaviour you are describing. Yes, some children will shine through all odds stacked against them, but to put all your chips into nature over nurture isnt even close to reasonable.

> to put all your chips into nature over nurture isnt even close to reasonable

It sounds like you're saying that "what we are" is less instrumental than "what we are told to be". We can agree to disagree.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#536
post #473

Here's a thought and I am writing this as I don my kevlar flame retardant jacket. For most things in life where we could impact the lives of other people materially - driving is a good example - we ensure some minimal amount of training before letting people perform that activity. However with parenting we have nothing and the result it seems is we pay with a ton more resources downstream in the way of therapy, deten…

It could be that parenting isn’t as much of a factor as growing up poor.

Poverty is certainly a factor but its another factor. There are kids who have the basics covered and then some but don't get the emotional support they need and that impacts them over their adult life.

every factor we mitigate helps

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite of emotional support is if you're crying, people around you say "don't be a baby." Actual emotional support can take a lot of different forms. I'd say that it includes someone recognising the emotions you're having, not judging them, not stopping you from expressing them, and talking about the emotions afterwards if you're up for it.

The really hard thing is finding the right balance. “Don’t be a baby” isn’t good, but over-compensating too far in the other direction doesn’t do a kid any favors either. There are times when being a good dad can mean (kindly) pushing kids out of their comfort zones or tempering excessive self-pity. I’m currently trying to teach my 4 year old daughter to swim, so this is very front-of-mind for me. If it was up to her…

> If it was up to her, she would just splash around in the shallowest part by the steps without trying anything she’s afraid of, and she would never learn to swim.

It is a very fine line but this part is probably not true. She's 4 years old and doesn't need to learn to swim, unless you really want an Olympic swimmer.

If she keeps going swimming in the shallow end, do you know what will happen? She will get bored and want different things (including deeper water).

I see this kind of thing frequently, kids work at a slower rhythm than parents and parents are still human and have limited time and patience.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#538
post #368

Kids in general are neglected because having a stay at home parent has become a financial luxury. Kids used to grow up with a parent present, now they grow up watching TikTok until their parents come home. This is a real problem that no one wants to talk about it.

How far back is "used to" because both of my fathers parents worked, and he was born in 1955 lol

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#539
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This would extend a prisoner’s punishment beyond their sentence. The goal of incarceration is to reform, not take revenge. That’s if all goes well and the system is not motivated by perverse incentives or overwhelmingly targeting a specific group of prisoners (like the poorer ones) with a deal they can’t really refuse.

The goal of incarceration is punishment (which acts both as retribution and deterrent), reform is an added benefit too rarely achieved, as is the benefit of keeping dangerous people away from future victims (in most countries those dangerous people are released sooner or later). Prison isn't a hospital for crime.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#540
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful not to confuse nature with nurture. Naturally humans have a high degree of variation. The traditionalist system you refer to is a construction, if a long-standing one. We can critique the success of this system like any other human construct. To argue that stoic fathers tend to produce better sons requires evidence. We might ask, "Better for what?" Better to be a disposable cog in a rich man's machine, per…

That's not what I am saying. I am saying someone has to play the role of a father. As a boy, someone needs to teach that boy how to become a strong man but also a man who lives correctly and fulfills his duties. If it was me, I would teach my son to be honest, honorable, to defend the weak and to understand different types of strengths (including intellectual), to treat his romantaic partner right and to learn how to…

> A well rounded upbringing with all emotional, social and psychilogical needs met is all I advocated.

Fair enough, but then:

> What I said was that it is not a father's job or rather, if a mother is available then she is best suited for that job.

Who says that she is? Plenty of women suck at nurturing. Plenty of men are good at it. Why not have both parents capable of providing emotional support and guidance? What about single dads? Why assume that dad is better than mom at training a kid for fitness and to stand up for themselves. There are a lot of women jocks and soldiers. Have you ever seen the arms on a bread baker? She could punch you through a wall and go back to kneading without missing a beat. Why assume that girls don't need to throw a punch? They deal with both bullies and rapists. You are falling into the trap of gender essentialism. There are sex differences, but they are not the straightjacket traditionalists say they are. Did you think Neanderthal women laid around on fainting couches waiting for some dude to hand them a hankie?

If you want to know what men and women can actually do, don't look at traditionalists, look for us iconoclasts. The fags, the dykes, women athletes, men that stay at home with the kids. We are living examples that essentialism is dangerous bullshit. If you want to see true bravery watch a drag queen walk down a city street past all the people who want to kill her. Balls of fucking steel. Talk to the girl coder in a room full of coder bros trying to either fuck her or drive her off. Imagine being Madeline Albright in a situation room full of generals. That's bravery.

My grandmother was a pioneer in computing and women's liberation. When her husband was off in the merchant marines under the constant threat of U boats, she wanted to do something for the war effort. She saw a sign for engineering classes. When she went to sign up the man told her, "Sorry honey, engineering is for men." The instructor happened to overhear and replied, "Let her take it Harry. Then she'll learn her place." Of course, my grandmother took the class, did better than all the other guys, and went on to a long career designing nuclear torpedo circuitry and keeping the mainframe running, while raising four kids alone, and dealing with a constant stream of sexist men. Pure bravery. On the flip side, she couldn't cook to save her own life, thought Sanka in tepid tap water was coffee, and was hopeless at nurturing her kids, who have the emotional scars to prove it.

My father is an example of a boy who was never taught emotional intelligence. He simply doesn't understand his emotions or why they change. If I say, "Dad, it seems like driving is making you anxious. Do you want to switch?" He doesn't recognize the category of "anxious". All he knows is that something is wrong, it could not be him, so it must be mom's fault. On the flip side, dad is one of the best people in the country at programming cultural events for college campuses and single-handedly transformed student life for generations of students and is one of the funniest guys you'll ever meet.

Humans have evolved to be flexible and resilient. A big brain frees us from the monorail of instinct. Men and women can be whatever we need to be. This period of reaction to progress will pass like so many others have. You can't stop a good idea forever. And we who know freedom will NEVER go back.

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