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How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

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Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#41

Post by voz_ »

ep103 wrote: post #32
voz_ wrote: post #26

Who cares though? I ask this elsewhere here too, so apologies if I am being redundant. Everything tracks me. My phone, every neighbors camera pointing out toward the street, the eyes in the sky, office buildings, grocery stores. I don’t care though, because I am no one. It’s such a non problem or issue for my day to day, and I couldn’t imagine choosing my car over something like this. However, on HN, I constantly see…

Its bizarre to see the "I have nothing to hide, so why should I care" defense on the top of Hacker News. Post Scriptum: If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu You have to move to feel the chains.

That’s not what I am saying, actually. I think tracking should be illegal. But I don’t live in a fantasy world. My point was that in our real world, where everything already tracks me, who cares?

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#43

Post by kelnos »

grugagag wrote: post #30
OnlineGladiator wrote: post #25

For many cars it's relatively straight-forward to disable the cellular modem, and sometimes it won't impact the other functionality of the car at all. Chances are someone in a forum somewhere has done the legwork for you. Do a google search and realize how easy (or hard) it is to do for your vehicle. Most of the time it won't even impact your warranty, apart from the modem you've purposefully disabled and no longer c…

Sure, but once it becomes widespread it will no longer be possible to do so on newer models.

How would the manufacturer enforce this? The first time someone gets stranded somewhere because the cellular hardware died and the car refused to start... well, sounds like a huge lawsuit to me.

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#44

Post by ern »

moonterrace wrote: post #8

2019 car here, equipped with a rear camera. Been driving for 43 years and I refuse to use the cam. The thing that bothers me is now I have to check the mfg connectivity TOS and must opt out instead of opt in to what data is transmitted - it’s ridiculous. Don’t get me started on the ever increasing software subscription services these manufacturers are trying to levy on consumers.

I recall reading/seeing somewhere that rear windows are getting smaller in newer models, so you could be putting pedestrians at risk by not using the rear camera.

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#45

Post by loeg »

SoftTalker wrote: post #39
karlshea wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just isn't true. There are many cars where it's impossible from within the car to see certain places behind it without the rear camera, no matter how your mirrors are set.

That's why you check behind the car (and all around it) before you get in and start moving.

Kids are mobile.

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#46

Post by AlotOfReading »

siegecraft wrote: post #13

Can you not just physically disconnect or shield the network antenna (assuming you own the car outright, i suppose if it's financed it might be trickier to do that legally)?

The same pipe that exfiltrates tracking data is bringing in the data for all the connected features of your car. That would include things like satellite radio, onboard navigation/GPS, software updates/recalls, and concierge/safety services (e.g. OnStar). In some cases, the same data is being used to both track you and provide the service, because the collection is happening somewhere on the backend. I wouldn't be surprised if many cars eventually broke in strange ways or displayed dashboard errors when you did this. The network connection is a pretty fundamental part of the vehicle software architecture and a lot of things depend on it.

If you're lucky enough that your car can continue indefinitely without a network connection, it's possible that you wouldn't notice these features being gone. Realistically though, most people would. The solution here needs to be legislative action to protect consumer privacy. Technological solutions fall short.

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#47

Post by rideontime »

foobarbecue wrote: post #29
alejohausner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're leaving out the punchline of your reply: those side-impact bars protect passengers better, but they also make the car windows higher, and reduce visibility. It's harder to see out the back of modern cars when you simply turn your body around and look behind you. That's why backup cameras are becoming mandatory in new cars.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Before the accident, I would have taken bigger windows over the side-impact bars if I'd been presented with the choice. And now I'm thankful to the regulators for taking away that freedom of choice. Odd.

A teaching moment. Sometimes the regulators actually do know what's best.

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#48

Post by kelnos »

voz_ wrote: post #31
rootsudo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem, you don't care until you do.

No that’s not a good answer. It’s a vague gesture at some non realistic threat. When will I care?

You'll care when the political winds shift in your country and your leaders don't like people of your race, religion, or sexual orientation, or perhaps one of your leisure activities, like the kinds of books you read or email newsletters you subscribe to. Meanwhile, there's all this data floating around that "proves" you the kind of person they don't like.

And everyone seems to think this could never happen to them, until it does.

Even if you are squeaky clean, the data on you could have errors, and your government -- with the best of intentions, even -- could misinterpret the data in ways that could cause you a lot of trouble. This isn't even a "what if?" type scenario; this sort of thing already happens to people.

Edit: your top-level comment got flagged and killed, but I vouched it back to life. I completely disagree with your views here, but I think it's valuable and important that we talk about things like this.

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#49

Post by noman-land »

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #25

For many cars it's relatively straight-forward to disable the cellular modem, and sometimes it won't impact the other functionality of the car at all. Chances are someone in a forum somewhere has done the legwork for you. Do a google search and realize how easy (or hard) it is to do for your vehicle. Most of the time it won't even impact your warranty, apart from the modem you've purposefully disabled and no longer c…

FYI, you can get the user manual of the car and find where the fuses are. One of the fuses will likely control the cellular system. Pull the fuse, no more data.

Re: How the most popular cars in the US track drivers

#50

Post by Klonoar »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #27
bnjmn wrote: post #7

Are there any new cars / car brands that credibly promise not to track their drivers? Any car with a network connection for software updates seems likely to be harvesting driver data, or is at least capable of doing so.

Essentially, no. Your best bets are the German manufacturers, some of whom (e.g. Porsche) have data opt outs for all services and exist within a legislative framework that's at least mildly protective of consumer privacy. Even then you should be wary about cars built for export to other markets like the US. It's common for the regional manufacturer to be a separate legal entity, with separate backend services, delive…

Japan's privacy laws are fairly strict and, to some degree, interoperate with GDPR.

For context, I've a Toyota GR86 where opting out of data sharing can be done via an app.

(Edits for some extra context)

https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/images/doc/Toyota%20-%20Co...

> (i) the Connected Services Privacy Notice located at www.Toyota.com/privacyvts (“Privacy Notice”). Carefully review the Privacy Notice as it applies to your personal information and Vehicle (as defined below) data that we collect, use, store, share and secure to provide the Services. Please note that your Vehicle comes with a data communication module (“DCM”) that enables the Wireless/GPS Technology, as described in Section 11(a), and allows for the collection of data from you and your vehicle (e.g., location, health and driving data). BY DEFAULT, THE DCM IS ON/ACTIVE WHEN YOUR VEHICLE IS DELIVERED AND WILL REMAIN ON/ACTIVE (AND CONTINUE TO COLLECT DATA FROM YOU AND YOUR VEHICLE) UNTIL YOU CONTACT US AND REQUEST THAT IT BE DEACTIVATED.

> (b) DCM. If you cancel your Service Plan, we have the right (but, unless you ask us to, not the obligation) to turn off your DCM as of the effective date of cancellation. Once your DCM is turned off, the Vehicle will not send any data to Toyota. Depending on the connectivity to your Vehicle, your DCM may deactivate immediately, or it may take up to several days.

The GR86 forums have a few people also looking at ways to outright disconnect the hardware for this kind of stuff entirely, but I believe that's slow going - haven't kept up on it. I just have the above saved since I look at this stuff when buying any new car these days.

The obvious disclaimer applies that you may enter warranty hell if you're disabling it, because it's 2023 and I guess society is fine with this level of default tracking. You should confirm how it affects you before changing anything. Otherwise, hope people find it helpful!

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