Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks • Hacker News Board

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#141

Post by lmm » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:37 PM UTC

troupe wrote: post #30

jimbob45 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you even address something like that? Even if you paid each father $10k to stick around to age 18, that doesn’t guarantee that they wouldn’t become domestic abusers, suicide victims, or would even be good role models. It’s possible that father presence for kids is only so valuable because the only fathers that stick around are the ones that care.

> only so valuable because the only fathers that stick around are the ones that care. Last time I looked at data about this, it appeared that even a poor father who was present was better than no having a father in the home. If I remember right it was measuring the likeliness of a teenager to end up in prison. If there was a segment of fathers that were worse than not having a father, I don't think it shows up in any…

> Last time I looked at data about this, it appeared that even a poor father who was present was better than no having a father in the home. If I remember right it was measuring the likeliness of a teenager to end up in prison. If there was a segment of fathers that were worse than not having a father, I don't think it shows up in any study I've seen.

I think their point is that those bad fathers don't show up, because they don't care about their children.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#142

Post by the_jesus_villa » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:37 PM UTC

camjohnson26 wrote: post #129

FeistySkink wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a 5:1 male:female suicide rate in my home country. This has been going on for decades. "Temporarily" saying "men suck" doesn't help.

[flagged]

This is a perilous line of thinking! Let's try it with race - "Black homicide rates are seven to eight times those of whites".

And yet, here in Latin America, there are posters in every major city decrying the crisis of "femicidio" (murder of women). Not because they are disproportionately victims (quite the opposite), but because that's what's interesting to the American NGOs that decide what political issues are trendy and important.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#143

Post by aredox » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:38 PM UTC

davidguetta wrote: post #108

hkt wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. When my kid was young and I was out with him the other parents (invariably women) treated me as an oddity and assumed I would be incompetent. Yet, many don't like the fact they're saddled with the majority of childrearing. Dating is much the same: the majority of the hetero/bi female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity. This gets better as one gets older,…

> majority of the hetero/bi female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity This is so insane. Anyone who's been enough a player of the dating game and treed to optimise your strategy known you will end up becoming or (in my case) pretending to be "toxic masculinity" because it work so much more on girls.

Maybe because you spend too much time with girls who are "players" on the dating "game".

insert meme about selection bias here

There's a whole world out there of fairly normal people who don't play those games. They are not in nightclubs. Try to live an actual life.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#144

Post by enragedcacti » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #131

caditinpiscinam wrote: post #29

As a black guy I don't remember a friend ever saying "black people suck" to my face. But I've heard people I'm close with, both women and men, say that "men suck" countless times. I think a lot of people who don't see themselves as "biased" still carry a lot of bias when it comes to gender, and it has an impact.

Misandry is normalized in society. Whenever you encounter a baseless attack on men just reverse the roles and you'll realize that there'd be pitchforks for treating women as anything other than paragons of virtue. Entire entertainment genres are built around portraying men as inept fools who can be looked down upon by the opposite sex. Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the me…

> Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the men. You couldn't even do that show today.

It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Succession? Yellow Jackets? The Righteous Gemstones? Beef? White Lotus? House of The Dragon?

You could argue about percentages but it is in fact extremely easy to do a show with flawed female characters today.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#145

Post by bmarquez » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

corinroyal wrote: post #83

throwanem wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before this comment gets downvoted to hell by the shitshow that invariably characterizes HN discussion of men's issues, just to say I appreciate the historical context here in particular, and the confirmation that just because the fascist right owns the topic today doesn't mean it was ever thus - or that it needs to stay that way.

Thank you. The history of the feminist men's movement was the first target of the MRM. They are very good propagandists. Even the name Men's Rights Movement sets up the opposition with feminism perfectly. But let's never forget that we were and can be allies.

> But let's never forget that we were and can be allies.

Can you share some examples? Honest question, I've never seen this happen in modern day America (it's usually just one side taking and taking instead of give and take).

Based on what you wrote the men's circles you talk about were probably influenced by Sterling Institute, Mankind Project, and the mythopoetic men's movement. I've attended related events in the distant past but I was much too young to "get it" (and honestly still don't get some of it coming from an immigrant family viewpoint).

Men's rights have been denigrated to the point my younger male (Western) friends are Andrew Tate fans because there isn't anything else left.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#146

Post by lmm » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:41 PM UTC

icegreentea2 wrote: post #63

joemazerino wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sharing your struggles doesn't make you weak. Asking for help doesn't make you weak. You are struggling, and you look for help because you are in a situation where the challenge is beyond your means. Sharing and asking for help can be part of adaption and part of overcoming. If one man has the resources within themselves to eventually learn to adapt and overcome to any situation, imagine how much stronger and how qui…

> Sharing your struggles doesn't make you weak. Asking for help doesn't make you weak.

In the western paradigm of masculinity it absolutely does. (And if you want to tear down the western paradigm of masculinity, I'd suggest making sure you have a better replacement ready first)

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#147

Post by znpy » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #2

> many young men don’t seek emotional support when they need it because they fear being perceived as weak and ineffective. I would be curious to see a study on what happens to those men who do seek it. As in every last case I anecdotally am aware of, that perception quickly became reality and those men regretted it.

Eh, I’m gonna bite the bullet and give a quick answer, based on what’s I’ve seen growing up:

Basically you get answers like:

“Man up”

“Grow a pair”

“Boys don’t cry”

“Life is harsh, get used to it”

Last but not the least: “psychologists are for weak people with mental problems, not for you”.

Two more observations again based on my life experience:

1. Weakness is generally accepted in girls/women, largely acknowledged and supported. Can’t say the same for boys/men.

2. Often times I’ve been said the above phrases either by girls/women of my same age or by people like teachers/educators.

Basically you end up appearing weak, sometimes get mocked, and in general you’re better off shutting up and keeping stuff inside. Over the years I’ve developed quite a cynicism, that I acknowledge and that (sadly?) works fairly well.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#148

Post by michaelt » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

KptMarchewa wrote: post #82

michaelt wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Girls on the other hand, all is well. Girls, on the other hand, get told their body is flawed. Gotta constantly be on a diet, and spend like an hour a day on beauty stuff. We are all victims of society.

Do you think millions of gym rats are thinking something different? I think it's weird that you present this as feminine problem when it's men who on average participate in more sports.

Honestly, yes. I exercise to have fun, be healthy, and maybe look a bit better. But I know for sure I can succeed in business, in programming, in academia, in comedy, even in pornography with only a few minutes of grooming every day.

Oh I know there are some men who struggle with body image issues. And the tiny proportion of men working as hollywood actors probably care about their looks a great deal. But do you shave your legs or wear make-up? Read beauty magazines? Me neither.

We men have a wealth of role models showing we can succeed regardless of appearance. Nobody gives a shit about Elon Musk's BMI, or how Richard Stallman dresses, or whether Donald Trump has a six pack.

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#149

Post by otoburb » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #58

jl6 wrote: post #11

> New research shows that when fathers are present and emotionally invested in children’s lives, they are more likely to develop a stronger sense of self-worth and excel in everything from school to relationships. Regardless of the debate on how tough (or not) love should be, the absent fathers issue seems like something concrete and impactful that we should be trying to address.

> the absent fathers issue seems like something concrete and impactful that we should be trying to address. Interestingly, only a few years ago, Bill Cosby himself made an impassioned plea to address these issues. He saw it a lot.

Cosby's criminal conviction(s)[1] undermined much of what he championed.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cosby_sexual_assault_case...

Re: Ignoring boys' emotional needs fuels public health risks

#150

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #109

akomtu wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> What's surprising is there is no visible response to neutralise that dogma. Perhaps because your exceedingly-vague conspiracy theory is full of holes? For example: 1. Which foreign governments are you accusing? Do you even know, or are you just assuming somebody must be doing the thing ? 2. Exactly what mechanism of foreign "grants" is being used to force the hiring of certain staff or educators, and where are they…

[deleted]