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Iron fuel shows its mettle

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221–227 of 227 posts

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#221

If I remember correctly, the process of recycling iron oxide into iron involves carbon monoxide and results in carbon dioxide, so, I’m not sure this would be as carbon neutral as they claim. There are other ways of course, but this is only for storage and recycling uses a lot of energy.

Iron oxide contains no carbon. So if there is any carbon monoxide forming that would have to come from somewhere else. Like the co2 in the atmosphere.

I’m talking about turning the iron oxide back into iron that can be burned. That usually uses carbon monoxide (mixed with hydrogen) to capture the oxygen atoms out of the iron oxide.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proposal is clearly for energy storage , not as a primary energy source . To that extent, it resembles other synfuel concepts. The principle difference being that iron-as-energy-storage entails reduction rather than synthesis , in the chemical sense, for hydrocarbon synfuels. There's a lot to be said for options which provide long-term, "shelf-stable", environmentally-benign, high-volume energy storage with conve…

The challenge of using synthesized chemicals for energy storage exists for quite some time indeed. For aviation and marine there may be no other option outside of synthetic fuels, I agree. Can this scale up? Or is this a small scale only solution? Transportation. How much energy would a truck be able to move? How does it compare to a tank truck? Weight is absolutely relevant here. Also, production. Consider that redu…

Germany and South Africa have both operated coal-to-liquids (Fisher-Tropsch) at industrial scale. Germany during WWII, South Africa from the 1940s or 1950s onwards (I'm not certain if it's still in process). Both nations had ample coal reserves but little petroleum.

I became aware of the prospect of synthesis from captured CO2 + hydrogen (from electrolysis) from a US Naval Research Lab study around 2015. Those papers had ... misleadingly-truncated citations, dating back only to the 1990s. It turns out that hydrocarbon synfuels were first proposed in the 1960s, by M. King Hubbert and studied at Brookhaven National Labs and M.I.T.

Google had an X Project devoted to the idea as well, though ran into insurmountable cost barriers.

Scaling seems to be a major concern, though the process does work at experimental scales, and produces usable fuel. It seems worth continued research based on the potential advantages, even if costs remain higher than fossil fuels. (The USNRL research suggested "competitive" costs, particularly for in situ military fuel generation, notably in aircraft carrier task groups which have ample supplies of nuclear energy, but need fuel for aircraft.)

Battery storage has numerous limitations: low energy density by both volume and weight, and the fact that whilst fuel burns off during flight (and accounts for 50% or more of take-off weight), batteries don't. In the case of metal-air batteries (iron and aluminium have both been proposed), as the redox reaction progresses, the battery gains mass as oxygen from the atmosphere is bonded to it. This poses problems for flight, and even ground-based transport tends not to work well with batteries at large scale.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#224
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My gut feeling is that transmission lines would still be cheaper Transmission lines are great for moving electricity, but only if there's demand for that electricity _right now_. Otherwise, you have to store it - which is a problem, because battery tech right now isn't great (or rather, it's not good enough for grid-scale requirements) . This iron powder could be thought of as a "battery". It might be harder to mov…

> or rather, it’s not good enough for grid-scale requirements I disagree with this point. LFP batteries are cheap, high density, and have huge cycle life. The big drawback of LFPs is manufacturing is just starting to ramp up on them. That is, they aren’t available. LFPs just came out of patent protection last year and you are already starting to see them everywhere. The biggest problem with LFPs today is demand is ou…

I can't see Lithium batteries of ANY kind ultimately being used for grid scale storage, beyond the initial pilot batteries we have going up now.

Current worldwide lithium production is at 3% of what it needs to be to electrify every car, which is a use case that has strict weight requirements. Ramping up lithium production by a factor of 30 is a big deal, and that's before we use any of it for grid storage!

Grid batteries are static so weight is not a concern, using the chemistry whose main advantage is weight for this purpose is a waste of resources. Heavy battery chemistries have largely been ignored because traditionally batteries have always been for mobile purposes, so we can expect an even better learning curve from low energy density but cheap battery technologies such as iron-air.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#225
post #50

> “Places that have excess energy could make iron, and others can buy it. This way, you could commodify renewable energy so it can be globally distributed without the need for transmission lines. Metals can solve a big problem in the renewable energy transition: long-duration energy storage.” My gut feeling is that transmission lines would still be cheaper. That being said long-term storage seems to be the value prop…

As you say weight is the issue.

Iron is not a good solution for moving energy because it is so heavy. Aluminium would be a much better solution.

See interesting chart of energy densities by weight and volume.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#/media/File:Ene...

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#226
It seems like the actual value add here is the long-term storage, Why not use aluminum?

Lithium (Li): 3,860,000 joules/kg Aluminum (Al): 31,500,000 joules/kg Copper (Cu): 13,100,000 joules/kg Iron (Fe): 20,000,000 joules/kg Nickel (Ni): 9,800,000 joules/kg Titanium (Ti): 10,500,000 joules/kg Zinc (Zn): 3,700,000 joules/kg Lead (Pb): 2,040,000 joules/kg Silver (Ag): 10,490,000 joules/kg Gold (Au): 9,700,000 joules/kg

It has the highest density per joules/kg.

Re: Iron fuel shows its mettle

#227
>"If these problems can be overcome, you could use renewable electricity to produce iron, store it as long as necessary, transport it there and then burn it for power when needed, says Bergthorson. “Places that have excess energy could make iron, and others can buy it. This way, you could commodify renewable energy so it can be globally distributed without the need for transmission lines. Metals can solve a big problem in the renewable energy transition: long-duration energy storage.”"

first off.... WTF? Transporting iron is cheaper than transmission lines? I call BS.

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